HR915..beginning of pay-2-play?

[trafficinsight]

Actually I think these are the worst things in that:

$45 for replacing an aircraft registration.

If they're gonna do that, they need to make them out of something better than business card stock and sign them with something better than a cheap "disappearing ink" ball-point pen.

$105 for issuing an aircraft certificate (other than an original dealer’s aircraft certificate).

See above.

$80 for issuing a special registration number.

used to be 3$ because all it is is an entry in the database, you can register an N number for an airplane you don't have.

$50 for issuing a renewal of a special registration number.

I guess this one isn't that bad... I guess if you really want a vanity N number you wouldn't mind it once every three years.

$100 for providing a legal opinion pertaining to aircraft registration or recordation.

100$ for an opinion... complete BS.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

That is BS, IMO...Great now your 1st class is going to 100 plus fees....Next they'll start charging for ATC services...

In reading more on the Bill it indicates the following as supporters...

• Airports Council International
• Air Transport Association of America (ATA)
• Regional Airline Association
• National Business Aviation Association
• FedEx
• Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
• Rockwell Collins
• General Aviation Manufacturers Association
• National Air Traffic Controllers Association
• Air Line Pilots Association
• Transport Workers Union of America
• International Brotherhood of Teamsters
• United Postal Service

WTH, I find it odd that AOPA and the unions are for it....

The overall bill has huge improvements that ALPA supports, so minor issues like this won't stop us from supporting the bill. The key is to support the bill and then go to work on getting someone to chop out the parts we don't like, if possible. If we can't get that done, then it's still worth the small sacrifice on these things to get the much bigger issues done.

[PGT]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

The overall bill has huge improvements that ALPA supports, so minor issues like this won't stop us from supporting the bill. The key is to support the bill and then go to work on getting someone to chop out the parts we don't like, if possible. If we can't get that done, then it's still worth the small sacrifice on these things to get the much bigger issues done.

What are the main reasons ALPA supports this bill?

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by PGT

What are the main reasons ALPA supports this bill?

Several things:

- Gets NextGen ATC off the ground finally

- Requires the FAA to do a real study on pilot fatigue

- Gives pilots an extra avenue in the court of appeals to overturn an NTSB or FAA certificate action

- Implements rules on UAVs

- Establishes an FAA whisteblower department instead of it falling under OSHA

- Clarifies foreign control of airlines

- Increases HIMS funding and involvement

- And the big one: require the FAA to issue new rules on flight time/duty time

[surreal1221]

Company reimbursement for job related expenses. . .

Moving on.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Company reimbursement for job related expenses. . .

Moving on.

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

The overall bill has huge improvements that ALPA supports, so minor issues like this won't stop us from supporting the bill. The key is to support the bill and then go to work on getting someone to chop out the parts we don't like, if possible. If we can't get that done, then it's still worth the small sacrifice on these things to get the much bigger issues done.

I see the union's point on getting a lot now and trying to change the fees later. But isn't this letting the camel get its nose under the tent? I hope the fees can get stripped out before it passes. I personally don't see the fees being stopped once they get put in place...

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Nick6485

Anyway, I hope the part the OP posted gets amended....to the point where that section that has to do with fees goes completely away. Time to write the Senators.

It costs money to issue a new certificate or to register an airplane. You pay money to the state to get a driver's license or to register your car. This is no different.

There is a big difference between these kinds of fees and things like charging to shoot an approach or to file a flight plan.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by trafficinsight

I would be willing to bet that the cost to process and replace a lost certificate is closer to 25$ than 2$

I am 100% against user fees, however, I think it's time to get a little more realistic about some of the costs that are already established.

Somehow I doubt it costs north of $10-12 to print out another one of those pieces of plastic using a laser printer with crappy ink and send it in the mail. In order for it to be "closer to $25," that's what we'd be talking about. Doing it in bulk, we MAY be talking $3-5 each. Up the replacement fee to $5-8, and no one will complain. What's postage? Less than a dollar or something? I can buy a sheet of plastic stock and have Kinko's print it out for less than $12.

[flyingmaniac]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Somehow I doubt it costs north of $10-12 to print out another one of those pieces of plastic using a laser printer with crappy ink and send it in the mail. In order for it to be "closer to $25," that's what we'd be talking about. Doing it in bulk, we MAY be talking $3-5 each. Up the replacement fee to $5-8, and no one will complain. What's postage? Less than a dollar or something? I can buy a sheet of plastic stock and have Kinko's print it out for less than $12.

What you are missing is a projection of the costs every year. Somewhere around at least 4% to add the price of everything.

[trafficinsight]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Somehow I doubt it costs north of $10-12 to print out another one of those pieces of plastic using a laser printer with crappy ink and send it in the mail. In order for it to be "closer to $25," that's what we'd be talking about. Doing it in bulk, we MAY be talking $3-5 each. Up the replacement fee to $5-8, and no one will complain. What's postage? Less than a dollar or something? I can buy a sheet of plastic stock and have Kinko's print it out for less than $12.

Can you still do it for less than 12$ if you have to develop, support, and maintain the Kinkos?

[29.92inHg]

Originally Posted by trafficinsight

Can you still do it for less than 12$ if you have to develop, support, and maintain the Kinkos?

I believe if you are using kinko's they should be making a profit, otherwise they wouldn't be there, therefore you are supporting your piece of this. That is before bulk discounts and the associated economies of scale.

Anyways, I understand a price increase, I mean look at stamps, but to just obliterate anything that was, and attach or insanely increase fees to everything but the examiner taking a crap in the morning is a little drastic

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by trafficinsight

Can you still do it for less than 12$ if you have to develop, support, and maintain the Kinkos?

Government printing offices print a lot more than FAA certs. I'm pretty sure they get funding from other places, too.

I'm not saying not to raise fees. I just think raising them $23 is a little insane, even for the government. Same with the medical fee since technically we're already paying it since it's passed along via the AME.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Look Bro, I'm SRS!



Lord knows we already have enough tax deductions, what's another $150 worth.

[Barty]

Originally Posted by tonyw

It costs money to issue a new certificate or to register an airplane. You pay money to the state to get a driver's license or to register your car. This is no different.

There is a big difference between these kinds of fees and things like charging to shoot an approach or to file a flight plan.

No problem there, but make them revenue neutral. They can't be used to generate extra funds for the agency.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by tonyw

It costs money to issue a new certificate or to register an airplane. You pay money to the state to get a driver's license or to register your car. This is no different.

There is a big difference between these kinds of fees and things like charging to shoot an approach or to file a flight plan.

Sure, but I only pay the state of Mississippi $5 every 3 years for the privilege of driving here. And that license at least has my picture on it. In order to cover the cost of ONE misplaced FAA license, that would be 15 years worth of living here.

[Nigel Croker]

Basically since AOPA is doing absolutely nothing anymore so if your medical costs 42$ and you save the 39$ from AOPA dues, it cost you 3$. I can live with that.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sure, but I only pay the state of Mississippi $5 every 3 years for the privilege of driving here. And that license at least has my picture on it. In order to cover the cost of ONE misplaced FAA license, that would be 15 years worth of living here.

You're in Mississippi. A lot of places charge more. It's $30 to renew your license here in Maryland. And it'll run you $138 to register your car for two years.

Regardless, it seems like there's general agreement on how it's okay to charge to register your airplane or to get a new certificate. Now we're quibbling about the amount that gets charged.

The consensus seems to be that these charges, while they are user fees, are okay. Fees to shoot an approach or to use ATC services are not.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

I see the union's point on getting a lot now and trying to change the fees later.

I didn't mean change it later, I meant change it in the bill before it goes for a floor vote. This bill will change a few dozen times before it actually gets a final vote on the floor. If you've paid off *ahem* I mean contributed to the campaigns of the right people, then you can sometimes get this stuff stripped out of a bill before it goes to a vote. There's a reason we have lobbyists and a PAC.

But isn't this letting the camel get its nose under the tent? I hope the fees can get stripped out before it passes. I personally don't see the fees being stopped once they get put in place...

In the grand scheme of things, it's a tiny issue. Getting something like this negotiated into a contract so the company has to pay is pretty damned easy. Hell, some airlines already have it. Getting all of the other improvements is the big thing.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You're in Mississippi. A lot of places charge more. It's $30 to renew your license here in Maryland. And it'll run you $138 to register your car for two years.

True, but it costs me as much each YEAR to renew my car as it does to renew yours in Maryland for two years. In Florida, it would cost me $27, AND they have no state income tax. Florida has more toll roads, however, so that's where they get a lot of their road repair dollars. Mississippi roads suck, which may have something to do with their tax revenues. Don't know about the roads in Maryland. It starts breaking down to CoL in the state. Can't really do that for a FEDERAL license. Why the huge jump in fees? Shouldn't the FAA be bleeding cash for years if the fee to replace a license needs to be jacked by 1200%?

Regardless, it seems like there's general agreement on how it's okay to charge to register your airplane or to get a new certificate. Now we're quibbling about the amount that gets charged.

I'm okay with a RATIONAL raise in the fee. I understand costs increase over time, but I'm not willing to subsidize budget missteps because some Congressman wants a new terminal for his hometown airport that doesn't even have scheduled air service.

The consensus seems to be that these charges, while they are user fees, are okay. Fees to shoot an approach or to use ATC services are not.

And I agree with that as well. Just needs to be rational.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

In the grand scheme of things, it's a tiny issue. Getting something like this negotiated into a contract so the company has to pay is pretty damned easy. Hell, some airlines already have it. Getting all of the other improvements is the big thing.

It'll be a cold day in hell before Trenary and Co agree to pay for our existing medicals, much less any new fees that happen to creep up. Now, if we can get a backdoor clause in their BEFORE the fees hit or even before management catches wind of it, that might work.

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You're in Mississippi. A lot of places charge more. It's $30 to renew your license here in Maryland. And it'll run you $138 to register your car for two years.

Call it what it really is - a TAX. You are being taxed for your car, not because the registration inherently costs anything.

Our car registrations in FL doubled in price last month. Not because the cost of registering cars changed, but because the state wasn't taking in enough other tax revenue.

[Slugger]

Hey, at least these fees aren't as bad as some other fees they want to implement. I can avoid having to pay most of these (since I am not in the market for an airplane right now and the only other one I'd have to pay for is the medical). And anyways, if someone is going to buy a $300,000 plane, I think they'd have the money for those fees, but idk. I'm just grateful that the fees aren't something that would affect me on every flight.

[Ngrossman]

if user fees were to be established for shooting approaches there is no way in the world i'd continue to train could never rationalize the amount of money you'd spend on it

[ChasenSFO]

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

Someone has to pay for a decade worth of war.

...pilots?

[Nick6485]

Originally Posted by tonyw

It costs money to issue a new certificate or to register an airplane. You pay money to the state to get a driver's license or to register your car. This is no different.

There is a big difference between these kinds of fees and things like charging to shoot an approach or to file a flight plan.

You have a good point. I just see this snow-balling into more and more fee's to be assessed later on.