Zero to Hero Concept

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

We are using the number 250 hours because of the minimum hours for Part 61 commercial ticket, right? The reason I say this is because of the numerousl discussions that would occur about the "appropriate" hours many would say is necessary especially with the "ATP before regionals" thread being bantered.

Not to speak for who you are talking about, but I think the answer is yes. I am guessing the "250 hour wonder" nomenclature will be around for a while. Just like the PFJ nomenclature will be around for a long time due to many of the senior captains at these regionals who paid for their jobs (not saying all did, but it was the craze in the early and mid 90's at the regionals).

The funny part is I think I left the "Harvard of the Skies" with around 188 TT back in the day. 250 is not necessarily the true number, and I know some actually had 300, 400, 500, and up hours, but they are still low time, IMO. Hell, I'm still relatively low time, IMO.

[PA44-LUV]

Originally Posted by jhugz

I don't know why I find this so funny, but I laughed out loud when I read it.

Glad to have put some humor into the boards. I was actually referencing a time I was discussing a flight plan with a friend as we were headed out to the plane. As we walked through the FBO I said, "so let's go get the plane started" and these people just stared at me with this horrified expression. My friend figured they thought I was their charter pilot or something. Their expressions were priceless, like one of those Mastercard commercials!

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by Socal321

That's fine and that is why it's more dangerous for a 250hour RJ fo to be flying a cessna vs a 121 jet in an crew environment. I litterally have friends that are furloughed now calling me now wondering if they should apply to pt135 ops because they're convinced they're going to kill themselves. It's not the same flying, you're part of a crew and everything's done for you. But I digress.....

I would venture a guess that a good number of recently furloughed RJ pilots have very little time in a steam gauge plane. Since most 135 ops are still in steam gauge planes, they would probably scare the crap out of themselves and have some close calls.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

I would venture a guess that a good number of recently furloughed RJ pilots have very little time in a steam gauge plane. Since most 135 ops are still in steam gauge planes, they would probably scare the crap out of themselves and have some close calls.

Or they flat out just think a prop is beneath them.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Or they flat out just think a prop is beneath them.

Funny you say that because two of the three that bypassed recall because they didn't want to fly a prop where the two high time ex-AF guys from my class.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Or they flat out just think a prop is beneath them.

There's a lot of that out there.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Or they flat out just think a prop is beneath them.

The sad part is that it would make them better pilots. Some 135 single pilot flying would make them grow a pair and weed out the weak and meek. Instead, they prefer to be button pushing robots who are, in most cases, just another passenger and bring little of value to the flight deck.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by a-300f4-622r

the sad part is that it would make them better pilots. Some 135 single pilot flying would make them grow a pair and weed out the weak and meek. Instead, they prefer to be button pushing robots who are, in most cases, just another passenger and bring little of value to the flight deck.

omg from inside the airline industry!!! Oh teh noes blasphemer!

[ChasenSFO]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Or they flat out just think a prop is beneath them.

Which I hear is the attitude that got this whole regionals taking over the domestic US thing started. That and refusing to fly a plane with 50 seats.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Or they flat out just think a prop is beneath them.

Single pilot?! At night?!!

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

Single pilot?! At night?!!

Probably with no autopilot

[A-300F4-622R]

Or flight director

[A-300F4-622R]

Or Garmin 10000000

[ChasenSFO]

Man, I'd love to be a freight dog. Its funny all my friends who have 135 mins and can't find a job are afraid to fly single pilot. I wouldn't think someone with that much time would be afraid of an airplane.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by ChasenSFO

Man, I'd love to be a freight dog. Its funny all my friends who have 135 mins and can't find a job are afraid to fly single pilot. I wouldn't think someone with that much time would be afraid of an airplane.

Sadly, I'm not surprised. This is just another example of the wussification of America's youth.

[ChasenSFO]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

Sadly, I'm not surprised. This is just another example of the wussification of America's youth.

Yep. I know one guy with a Commercial Mutli and 400 hours who rents out of OAK and will only fly if me or another buddy comes along to "help out" since the airspace is so busy. Meanwhile student pilots are doing their intital solos out of Oakland International. Every one of those guys I mentioned went to ATP too, wonder if its a pattern. Just sayin'.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by ChasenSFO

Yep. I know one guy with a Commercial Mutli and 400 hours who rents out of OAK and will only fly if me or another buddy comes along to "help out" since the airspace is so busy. Meanwhile student pilots are doing their intital solos out of Oakland International. Every one of those guys I mentioned went to ATP too, wonder if its a pattern. Just sayin'.

I guess it's good that they know their limitations.

[Nigel Croker]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I understand you completely, but there's something else missing in this equation (and I don't know what it is & truly, I can't put my finger on it).

Explain the difference, if possible, between an RJ and a C-17 as it relates to a low time right seater. I really need some help understanding why it works in one situation and it's frowned upon elsewhere. More specifically, what's in a military person that, generally speaking, is not in a civilian?

The unfortunate truth is low timers in the cockpit only really became a topic when the industry hit the dumps. Most of these guys with a serious beef didnt mention the lo timers when it got them some free time in the schedule, back in the day when they were timing out every month they were griping they never had any free time, and were mad that the company wouldnt hire pilots quick enough. The reality of this industry is that it is feast or famine and pilots change their stand every time the industry cycles, that is why no easy answer exists to change aviation, no one has any real opinions anymore, just the court of public (pilots in this case) opinion..sad but true..Pilots as a rule waffle on opinions like crazy, heck just read the boards, if you doubt my take on it.

[Nigel Croker]

Originally Posted by esa17

They get it from not knowing better and the desire to convince themselves of something much more comfortable.

I'll take someone with 500DG over 1000TSIC any day.

Whether I agree with this or not is irrelevant at this point, but the reality is that the people who do the hiring in the 121 and 135 world dont see it that way, they look at multi- time plain and simple, if you meet TT and Multi, you interview then they go from there.....and I dare say they would say 1000 turbine SIC means this guy has proven he can handle being a full fledged crewmember. If you are a complete bonehead eventually a captain will write you up and you'll be in front of Pro- standards or the like faster than a Citation X, therefore you wouldnt make 1000 SIC.

[kh15]

No pilot with 300TT should be allowed anywhere near an RJ, brasilia, or even a B1900 for that matter. All those short cutters who bypass the CFI route by either spending thousands on sim time or some special program (wont name any names) are missing out on quality experiences. 1,500 hours TT at the MINIMUM is a new rule I COMPLETELY agree with. The QUALITY of pilot will now go up. No more of these short cutters will be able to slide in anymore which is a good thing for SAFETY and APPRECIATION of the job. I enjoy instructing and I'll do another 1,000 dual given if that is what it takes to get there. Only quality (by quality i mean experienced) pilots should be in the cockpit, not short cut 13 year olds with a brand new comm/multi. 1,500TT is still low...but compared to 300??!! I mean C'mon. I've flown with international students who have only 250 TT.....250! and they're in line for type ratings in the B767, B757, B737, and A320....unbelievable! Experience needs to be earned, not bought.

ok I'm done

[anthenry]

Let me preface by saying I don't want to sound like a jerk or offend anyone in this post, and I hope that I don't.

I understand pilots in the airline industry complaining about low time pilots. I have done it myself. I feel I undertand why and what I am complaining about. I am a huge advocate of increasing minimums and hiring qualifications. These regulations are a huge benefit to the industry.

What I don't like is low time pilots and pilots who have never experienced the line or a transport catagory aircraft passing judgement and telling others what is acceptable to be in a transport catagory aircraft. They don't have the experience or understanding to make this call. I read posts from these ineperienced pilots demanding tougher regulation for an industry they have never experienced. They are judging pilots that they have never flown with. For all they know these low time pilots are better pilots, more knowledgable, and have better adm.

I guess what I am saying is make decisions and comments based of experience and understanding. I feel I can call for tougher regulation because I have seen low time pilots make bad decisions and create an unsafe work environment. This is coming from first hand experience and understanding.

Anyway, that is all. Bash away.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by kh15

No pilot with 300TT should be allowed anywhere near an RJ, brasilia, or even a B1900 for that matter. All those short cutters who bypass the CFI route by either spending thousands on sim time or some special program (wont name any names) are missing out on quality experiences. 1,500 hours TT at the MINIMUM is a new rule I COMPLETELY agree with. The QUALITY of pilot will now go up. No more of these short cutters will be able to slide in anymore which is a good thing for SAFETY and APPRECIATION of the job. I enjoy instructing and I'll do another 1,000 dual given if that is what it takes to get there. Only quality (by quality i mean experienced) pilots should be in the cockpit, not short cut 13 year olds with a brand new comm/multi. 1,500TT is still low...but compared to 300??!! I mean C'mon. I've flown with international students who have only 250 TT.....250! and they're in line for type ratings in the B767, B757, B737, and A320....unbelievable! Experience needs to be earned, not bought.

ok I'm done

Unfortunately the low timer is a byproduct of the job itself. The quality of the flying profession has gone way down needing cheaper labor. The sad thing is with the surplus of qualified pilots now it will continue to stay that way.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by ChasenSFO

I wouldn't think someone with that much time would be afraid of an airplane.

It all depends on what they did with that time. A couple of hundred hours of vfr pattern flying would do you no good for an IFR op especially in hard IFR areas of the country like the NW.

[Boris Badenov]

I've never flown a transport category aircraft. But I've flown with plenty of low time pilots. Some were better than others for sure (the better ones were typically the ones that asked a lot of questions rather than voiced a lot of opinions). What they all had in common was lack of the experience necessary to make good decisions every time. Not their fault...this isn't an assault on the moral character of low time guys. I was one too, and I'm only slightly evil. I think what's being pointed out if you'd stop and listen is that anyone can be taught to operate a transportation appliance 99% of the time. Bit when things go pear shaped you want someone who can do more than spin dials and repeat memory items. The flying part needs to be second nature so you can deal with the unexpected part. That comes only one way...experience. Imho, etc.

[splash]

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

I think what's being pointed out if you'd stop and listen is that anyone can be taught to operate a transportation appliance 99% of the time. Bit when things go pear shaped you want someone who can do more than spin dials and repeat memory items. The flying part needs to be second nature so you can deal with the unexpected part. That comes only one way...experience. Imho, etc.

Not disagreeing with you here but low timers need the pear shaped training to get that experience passed down and yes, not trained just to spin dials. Learning experiences do get passed down if it is brought to the table and someone has to be there able to pick it up after you lay it down for them. I believe this is the short cut. Example, this happen to me one time... and I learned...

Flight time is pointless if things never turned pair shaped for a pilot. However, a pilot can be trained what to do to get out of each situation.