Zero to Hero Concept

[flyingmaniac]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm pretty damn certain that NOBODY with 500 hours (except maybe Wilbur) would be able to handle an Airbus. Just because she was "there" doesn't mean she knows any better than somebody who wasn't.

I flew with a few 300 hour wonders who were damn certain they were Chuck Yeager in the airplane despite the fact that they sucked. Sometimes if nobody tells you (and you have nothing, like 1000 hours of experience, to tell you otherwise) you have no idea that you suck.

The Spirit thing hits a little close to home for me. A very good friend of mine (who had about 300 hours of PIC in a Lear 60 and 2500+ TT) lives in FLL and applied to them. They turned him down and told him he interviewed well but wasn't competitive and to reapply when he had 1000 PIC. A guy he interviewed with (who had 1000 PIC) later called him to tell him the new hire class was made up of himself and 5 Riddle/UND kids (4 of them were female) all with less than 600 TT and no turbine PIC.

That is sick!

[granlistillo]

Originally Posted by ILSstud

Needless to say she left the table...and I enjoyed my coffee and newspaper.

Sometimes it isn´t what you say, but how you say it. That is a good rule in dealing with people, and dare I say from experience women in general...

I wasn´t there so I certainly don´t know.

[ILSstud]

This is a good point....diplomacy is important!

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by granlistillo

Sometimes it isn´t what you say, but how you say it. That is a good rule in dealing with people, and dare I say from experience women in general...

I wasn´t there so I certainly don´t know.

Defensive people become defensive for a reason. She knew just under the surface of her confident face she puts out, she was under qualified and won the lotto. She won't be happy until someone massages her ego about how "cool" it is she made it to Spirit right out of the gate while the rest of us had to scrape it out. Funniest part is, years from now when everyone forgets about it and even she realizes no one cares, she'll admit her own failings. People like that have to come to their own realizations, and they eventually do.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm pretty damn certain that NOBODY with 500 hours (except maybe Wilbur) would be able to handle an Airbus.

Nah, I bet Wilbur himself would pick up a model train hobby if he found himself in an airbus.

[amjon]

Originally Posted by Mike H

But will you admit to lyin-errr, fibbing?

Of course.

[Louie1975]

Ok, as someone who is closing in on 2000 hours with 1600 dual given, I must say I am very thankful for my experience and have learned A TON. There is, a lot more to go in the learning process.

BUT.....many parts of the world put 300 hour First Officers in the cockpit. Heck, my 1600 hours dual given have been to Chinese Cadets who, after Private, Instrument, Commercial Multi, ATP Written, some King Air time, go home and they are in airline training.

This is a complex issue that has many aspects to it.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by ILSstud

you know, I want the girl to say "ok fine Alec, you are right, I was wrong..." that kind of thing.

You clearly have a lot to learn about women.

On a serious note, they are doing cadet programs overseas. Apparently those folks feel that you can go from zero to hero. Your mileage may vary. This does not constitute an endorsement of such programs. Erections lasting more than four hours are a serious medical condition and require immediate attention from a medical professional. Pregnant women, the elderly, and children should avoid extended exposure to happy fun ball. Happy fun ball contains a liquid core which if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. If happy fun ball begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head. Do not taunt happy fun ball.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm pretty damn certain that NOBODY with 500 hours (except maybe Wilbur) would be able to handle an Airbus. Just because she was "there" doesn't mean she knows any better than somebody who wasn't.

I flew with a few 300 hour wonders who were damn certain they were Chuck Yeager in the airplane despite the fact that they sucked. Sometimes if nobody tells you (and you have nothing, like 1000 hours of experience, to tell you otherwise) you have no idea that you suck.

The Spirit thing hits a little close to home for me. A very good friend of mine (who had about 300 hours of PIC in a Lear 60 and 2500+ TT) lives in FLL and applied to them. They turned him down and told him he interviewed well but wasn't competitive and to reapply when he had 1000 PIC. A guy he interviewed with (who had 1000 PIC) later called him to tell him the new hire class was made up of himself and 5 Riddle/UND kids (4 of them were female) all with less than 600 TT and no turbine PIC.

I feel your pain too and that BS hits very close to home with me as well

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Louie1975

BUT.....many parts of the world put 300 hour First Officers in the cockpit.

The training (and much more importantly the SELECTION PROCESS) those 300 hour First Officers go through is NOTHING like paying 50K a year and sitting through Riddle classes.

[A-300F4-622R]

One of the big problems with low time regional first officers is they lack making real world command decisions as PIC. They have limited PIC time, and what PIC time they have is in a highly structured environment that gives them little room to make decisions on their own.

Even though they are acting as SIC at the regional. Having real world command decision making experience as PIC allows them to be a truly effective crewmember who is able to cross check the Captains decisions and offer effective comment and suggestions as to a particular course of action.

[modernicarus]

Originally Posted by ILSstud

...Isn't it a generally accepted principle that piloting a jet requires "some" amount of experience, whether that be through CFI or flying small airplanes before graduating onto a passenger airliner?...

Just out of curiosity, how many hours does the average military pilot have when he/she starts piloting a jet?

[Pilot84]

A CFI with 1500 hours flying the traffic pattern in a 152 is a lot more experienced than someone with 500 to fly a passenger aircraft? Lets get real, in my class there were pilots with 300 hours and 3000 hours. 4 of the hired that had over 3000 hours did not pass the sim while everyone else did.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm pretty damn certain that NOBODY with 500 hours (except maybe Wilbur) would be able to handle an Airbus. Just because she was "there" doesn't mean she knows any better than somebody who wasn't.

I flew with a few 300 hour wonders who were damn certain they were Chuck Yeager in the airplane despite the fact that they sucked. Sometimes if nobody tells you (and you have nothing, like 1000 hours of experience, to tell you otherwise) you have no idea that you suck.

The Spirit thing hits a little close to home for me. A very good friend of mine (who had about 300 hours of PIC in a Lear 60 and 2500+ TT) lives in FLL and applied to them. They turned him down and told him he interviewed well but wasn't competitive and to reapply when he had 1000 PIC. A guy he interviewed with (who had 1000 PIC) later called him to tell him the new hire class was made up of himself and 5 Riddle/UND kids (4 of them were female) all with less than 600 TT and no turbine PIC.

OK, so maybe I went off tangent in the thread, so I'd like to ask. . .what are talking about here? Is it the zero to hero concept or female pilots? Alec, (good evening to you as well! ) Yes, your friend was a little thin skinned indeed, but her furlough wasn't a gender issue but a seniority, or lack thereof, one. Why is she complaining?

So many schools of thought here, and for me, it's all about being a good pilot whether you're low time or not coupled with quality of training and experience. Good pilot, quality of training and vast experience. . .that makes for a great pilot. Change anyone of those intangibles to a negative, and the quality of the pilot then deteriorates.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Pilot84

A CFI with 1500 hours flying in a 152 in a traffic pattern is a lot more experienced than someone with 500 to fly a passenger aircraft? Lets get real, in my class there were pilots with 300 hours and 3000 hours. 4 of the hired that had over 3000 hours did not pass the sim while everyone else did.

Exceptions to the rule don't justify the rule not being there. I heard the funniest thing the other day. Someone was trying to justify the proposed ATP bill to be wrong because of the NW Pilots. They were talking about all the time in the airplane etc. etc. etc. However your statement and his are nothing more then exceptions.

From my understanding and this is second hand info that just seems to match up from others is that you are a burden on your captain regardless for about your first 100 hours in the airplane before you start to become really comfortable in it. However take someone with 300 hours and very little PIC decision making and they are just going to drag down that flight crew even more. At this point the Capt is flying the airplane single pilot around thunderstorms dealing w/ icing etc etc etc. The Captain is there to make the final decision but you are there as a crew to come up w/ the best possible decision for every problem. How can this be accomplished as a 300 hour pilot? Thus you have one person making all the decision alone and as we all know humans are human.

I have heard it on here before from Capt's that had there arse saved by an FO. Would this have happened w/ a less experienced FO taxing around JFK at night. Maybe but I like my odds the other way around.

To the less then 1500 hour total time RJ and TP FO's, stop taking these threads as personal shots to your piloting skills. We are trying to brainstorm ways to improve the industry not take shots at your piloting abilities.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

One of the big problems with low time regional first officers is they lack making real world command decisions as PIC. They have limited PIC time, and what PIC time they have is in a highly structured environment that gives them little room to make decisions on their own.

Even though they are acting as SIC at the regional. Having real world command decision making experience as PIC allows them to be a truly effective crewmember who is able to cross check the Captains decisions and offer effective comment and suggestions as to a particular course of action.

Welcome to the board.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

OK, so maybe I went off tangent in the thread, so I'd like to ask. . .what are talking about here? Is it the zero to hero concept or female pilots?

Both. Zero to hero have no place in an RJ let alone a 320. Also, Spirit (for what ever reasons) felt they needed to hire female pilots so they went to Riddle and UND and hired a bunch of graduating seniors.

They hired pilots right out of school who had THOUSANDS of hours less than the average in the stack or resumes they had.

AND... out of those newbie pilots they did look at, the vast majority (over 80% for a period of time) were female.

They didn't go for the highest time pilot.

They didn't go for the most qualified pilot.

They didn't go for the most experienced pilot.

They hired to check a box on a form.

THAT doesn't sound very safe to me.

Originally Posted by modernicarus

Just out of curiosity, how many hours does the average military pilot have when he/she starts piloting a jet?

This has been beaten to death before. A military guy probably will have less than 50 hours when he gets in his first jet. BUT... the other 30 guys that were gunning for that seat have already washed out and he's spent 10Xs more time and effort training to get into that seat than his civilian counterparts drooling over their first RJ (or Airbus) at 300 hours.

[granlistillo]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

Just out of curiosity, how many hours does the average military pilot have when he/she starts piloting a jet?

Old school USAF UPT "0"

[Doug Taylor]

Nah, I don't think it's a dead horse.

If you're just flying airplanes, it MIGHT be alright, but there's so much more to the job than just plugging in a flight plan and launching off of 25R.

At least in my operation, I know that flying is primary, however you've really got to have the flying down cold and be ready to look ahead of the bend and anticipate a dynamic environment.

If you're just focused on the flight director and can't see the "building storm" of not being able to anticipate changes in a dynamic environment, you're no longer an asset on the flight crew, but a liability.

We've had a number of new hires come right to the ER operation and while most have been absolutely amazing, there's a couple of them that you, as another FO, had to watch like hungry dingo around a baby and I got a little pissy because I'm not compensated to be someone's babysitter - because he's not here to learn, he's here to perform a job.

Now if the person was a 300 hour wonder with basic airmanship and inflight decision making was thrown into the mix, it'd be even worse.

Again, opinion only and it's just my perspective.

[modernicarus]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

This has been beaten to death before. A military guy probably will have less than 50 hours when he gets in his first jet. BUT... the other 30 guys that were gunning for that seat have already washed out and he's spent 10Xs more time and effort training to get into that seat than his civilian counterparts drooling over their first RJ (or Airbus) at 300 hours.

Sorry, I didn't mean to beat a dead horse, but I didn't know that horse was dead. The OP had mentioned "a generally accepted principle" which I never knew existed. Growing up as a USAF brat with a dad that was an Air Force pilot for over 23 years, I knew it was very, very low, but wasn't sure how low and never thought that you had to have X number of hours before you were allowed to fly a jet.

But then again, I didn't know civilians could learn to fly until I was in my early twenties due to my own erroneous "generally accepted principle" that ALL pilots come from the military so my perspective might be a little skewed due to my life influences and experiences.

As far as training time and effort put forth, a civilian is just as capable of working and training as hard or harder than his/her military counterpart so I don't buy that argument. There are "true aviators" and there are "airplane drivers" in both of those worlds and it is up to the individual to decide which one he/she wants to be.

[deek]

So i see a lot of thumbs down for the zero to hero concept and I would agree. No kid with a wet comm should be flying big tin. My goal after completing all my certs would be to hopefully CFI a bit until a king air needs a right seater and fly that, assuming it paid the bills, then apply for a regional. My only problem with that and the zero to hero rejection concept is the seniority principal. Why delay going to the airlines if I can get hired, because the sooner you're in, the sooner life is going to be better (pay & QOL), so why not take a right seat at a regional if someone says i'm qualified (passing a sim test) and be on the way to my goal? How do you tell a young pilot to not apply for an airline if they are qualified and would pass all the sim flights, when they know its seniority that rules all?

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Both. Zero to hero have no place in an RJ let alone a 320. Also, Spirit (for what ever reasons) felt they needed to hire female pilots so they went to Riddle and UND and hired a bunch of graduating seniors.

They hired pilots right out of school who had THOUSANDS of hours less than the average in the stack or resumes they had.

AND... out of those newbie pilots they did look at, the vast majority (over 80% for a period of time) were female.

They didn't go for the highest time pilot.

They didn't go for the most qualified pilot.

They didn't go for the most experienced pilot.

They hired to check a box on a form.

THAT doesn't sound very safe to me.



This has been beaten to death before. A military guy probably will have less than 50 hours when he gets in his first jet. BUT... the other 30 guys that were gunning for that seat have already washed out and he's spent 10Xs more time and effort training to get into that seat than his civilian counterparts drooling over their first RJ (or Airbus) at 300 hours.

Me thinks, from all this discussion, that perhaps, despite its size, maybe an RJ is an aircraft that can easily be flown single pilot except for the obligatory regulation that places an SIC in the cockpit?

Thought?

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

Sorry, I didn't mean to beat a dead horse, but I didn't know that horse was dead. The OP had mentioned "a generally accepted principle" which I never knew existed. Growing up as a USAF brat with a dad that was an Air Force pilot for over 23 years, I knew it was very, very low, but wasn't sure how low and never thought that you had to have X number of hours before you were allowed to fly a jet.

But then again, I didn't know civilians could learn to fly until I was in my early twenties due to my own erroneous "generally accepted principle" that ALL pilots come from the military so my perspective might be a little skewed due to my life influences and experiences.

As far as training time and effort put forth, a civilian is just as capable of working and training as hard or harder than his/her military counterpart so I don't buy that argument. There are "true aviators" and there are "airplane drivers" in both of those worlds and it is up to the individual to decide which one he/she wants to be.

. . .and to elaborate further, in the November edition of AOPA Pilot, they showcase a young lieutenant who I believe is probably a low time pilot as well. She now right seats a C-17. We all know there's a difference in training between civilian and military, but are you really adamant about the fact civilian pilot training (for low timers) is not as comprehensive as the military in preparing pilots for the flight deck even if they have low hours? The reason I say this is because everyone knows airlines hire military for their programs and there are some military who don't pass despite high time in military aircraft. Seems to me even if hired, doesn't necessarily mean they'll endure the training to successful completion.

[Itchy]

Military people are hired because they are more likely to get through training, have demonstrated a proven discipline, fairly smart, and can do the same thing the same way, time after time. And for many more reasons.
That said, there are always a few who buck the trend.
I'm not a fan of very low timers in front of an RJ, but for the most part it has worked out, and is a proven idea.
As much as that sucks, it is what it is.
I can think of at least one known accident where total time did not play a part, but maturity did.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by Itchy

I'm not a fan of very low timers in front of an RJ

Why not? They wouldn't be there long!