Hiring Good Low Time Pilots

I_Money · October 26th, 2009, 21:19

Like any profession - there are some young pilots who are exceptional and others who aren't. What do you guys think is the trick to hiring 1000TT pilots that have sound aviation decision making, are capable of handling aircraft and are just professional in their approach to the career. Do you think not hiring anyone who has failed a check ride is a good method? Or............

jynxyjoe · October 26th, 2009, 21:30

I'd say extended breakin period. Requirements to fly with old crusty captains for first 500 hours. Make it clear we'll toss you for poor attitude.

I have no idea. I'm just saying the most rude things I can come up with.

mojo6911 · October 26th, 2009, 21:31

I think a failure on a checkride is a little harsh. There are some FSDO examiners that go out of their way to fail qualified applicants on CFI rides. Someone who failed their private pilot exam 10 years ago on a short field landing shouldn't be disqualified from a job that they are now qualified for.

Training and evaluation needs to be improved, obviously. I have heard of some places using some POS PC-Sim to do new hire evals. It should be done in a real simulator representative of the airplane, at least showing they have BAI skills and can shoot an approach.

ljg · October 26th, 2009, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jynxyjoe

Make it clear we'll toss you for poor attitude.

I completely agree. Attitude and work ethic are a lot tougher to teach than airmanship.

CRJDriver · October 26th, 2009, 21:41

I'd say a thorough interview process and evaluation should give you a good idea if somone is competent enough to work for your company, doesn't matter how many hours. I believe any flying job interview should include HR, technical and scenario based/ADM questions, as well as a sim or flight check. There are low time pilots who are good sticks, have great Decision making skills and know how to deal with people and different situations.

splash · October 26th, 2009, 21:46

Aviation is a tough racket to start with in the beginning unless you know the right people so I would wonder why anyone would make it even harder. I'd like to see, instead of looking into a failed checkride, the company just spend some time with the applicants just like any other interview.

Should a pilot be handed a license if he/she does not make good decisions or not capable of handling the aircraft? Professionalism is a bit different though.

Pass or fail a checkride doesn't matter IMHO.

N18040 · October 26th, 2009, 21:46

Come on, it can't be that hard, just start a thread on JetCareers that you have a job opening, and then just pick any of those resumes. Everyone here is an extra pilot right? I don't see why you shouldn't just hire everyone with a JC account.

splash · October 26th, 2009, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by N18040

Come on, it can't be that hard, just start a thread on JetCareers that you have a job opening, and then just pick any of those resumes. Everyone here is an extra pilot right? I don't see why you shouldn't just hire everyone with a JC account.

Not one failed checkride here!!!

Pilot0486 · October 26th, 2009, 22:34

Definitely fly during the interview. Also have an extensive face to face interview to judge the persons body language and attitude when you put them in a stressful situation. Always a good barrier to see how the candidate acts in a stressful flying situation.

Failed checkride isn't always a given, you can have a pilot that squeaks by on checkrides and passes them all that's a terrible pilot, and some really good pilots have failed a CFI checkride.

KSCessnaDriver · October 26th, 2009, 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by splash

Not one failed checkride here!!!

Famous last words right there.

minitour · October 26th, 2009, 22:59

I'll agree with the attitude thoughts. The best thing you can do is have a good attitude. I can show you how to fly the plane (within reason). I can't teach you to be tolerable for a 10 day trip or open to learning the stuff I'm trying to teach you.

-mini

BrewMaster · October 26th, 2009, 23:06

From listening to pilots more experienced than I, a lot of it is ATTITUDE. I'd say the majority of pilots have failed checkrides. Is that a big deal? I don't think so. It's not something to brush under the rug, but there are many more factors that are much more important.

I could go either way on sim rides. I think they are great screening tools. But if you have 1000 TT with a pretty good mix of flying and a good amount of instrument time, I would assume that wouldn't be an issue. Maybe just go through an approach plate or enroute chart during the interview. I think having a good work history and good references who will vouch for you is very important. Be able to talk clearly and professionally during the interview is a must. Also have a sense of humor(and know when and when not to use it) and a laid back/easy to get along with personality. All that combined with positive/optimistic attitude and a healthy dose of confidence should help to screen a good candidate. No, I don't interview people or really have any experience doing that. No, I don't think attitude is the ONLY thing that's important. I'm just saying I believe all these things should carry some weight going into an interview.

Joe Gremlin · October 27th, 2009, 00:06

My method may not be the best, but here's what I'd do. Go fly with them and see if they've got any skills at all. If so, then go drinking with them. Get them good and liquored up and then get them telling war stories. If there's any bats lurking in the belfry, they'll make an appearance before the night is over 9 times out of 10. Not very scientific I know, but I've had serveral experiences where I knew the guy would be a good stick or a loose nut by the time the first night of drinkin' was over.

minitour · October 27th, 2009, 00:13

What if they don't drink?

-mini

mtsu_av8er · October 27th, 2009, 00:46

How long have they had their CFI, how much cross country do they have, and how many students can they handle?

Boris Badenov · October 27th, 2009, 00:51

Don't trust people who don't drink. Good low time pilots is a contradiction in terms. Failed checkrides are ok because I have and I'm God's gift to aviation. There. I win jynxy.

PGT · October 27th, 2009, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

Failed checkrides are ok because I have and I'm God's gift to aviation. There. I win jynxy.

That's what my roommates call me so how can there be 2 of us?

I know they're only PVTs but still.

Joe Gremlin · October 27th, 2009, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

What if they don't drink?

-mini

I don't understand the question.

RICHARD5 · October 27th, 2009, 02:09

Mr Low Time Pilot needs some life experience. Say, around 50 yrs of age transitioning from another career.

When do I start?

Number1atNumber2 · October 27th, 2009, 02:31

I'll echo the attitude idea, that can go a long way. As for the checkride thing, I wouldn't even bother asking it except to find out how they handled a fail, not IF they ever failed. I'd rather know what kind of a pilot they are now, and not so much the pilot they were in training.
As for interview questions, I'd ask them WWYD situational questions, preferably from a time you've had. The thing that sucks about interviews is so many people try to say what they think the person wants to hear.

ChasenSFO · October 27th, 2009, 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Gremlin

I don't understand the question.

I know a few.

moxiepilot · October 27th, 2009, 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo6911

There are some FSDO examiners that go out of their way to fail qualified applicants on CFI rides.

I think that people who say that are generally people who failed the ride. 70% of applicants for the CFI pass with the FSDO or DPEs.

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/avi...atistics/2008/ - table 19 & 20. or refer to the thread http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-cor...study-cfi.html

I don't put much weight in a failed ride as everyone else has said, but I also would own up to it if I needed to retest for a failure.

jhugz · October 27th, 2009, 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

I think that people who say that are generally people who failed the ride. 70% of applicants for the CFI pass with the FSDO or DPEs.

I think that the people that say this are the people who want to feel better about themselves by putting others down.

5 applicants went to the Chicago FSDO.

All 5 busted on the first try.

2 busted on the second try. (I was one of the two yet we were the only ones who completed the -II final stage check on the first try.)

It's all luck when you get assigned Fed's. I got a great Fed on my second retest. Totally fair and I actually learned a thing or two from him. The first one I can't say the same about.

I definitely do not deserve to fly a airliner. Change in class endorsements & ground ref are just so critical in everyday 121 flying.

jynxyjoe · October 27th, 2009, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

Don't trust people who don't drink. Good low time pilots is a contradiction in terms. Failed checkrides are ok because I have and I'm God's gift to aviation. There. I win jynxy.

Lol.

A few of our best are young low time ones here at Mesaba. Most of our best, the overwhelming majority, are senior guys/gals and guys/gals with high time. Low time and good attitude and skill can happen, it's just far and few. Makes those few shine all the more though.

I am completely in favor of raising the mins. I wish there were some way to sweep a magic wand and up pay too.

moxiepilot · October 27th, 2009, 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhugz

I think that the people that say this are the people who want to feel better about themselves by putting others down.

Yeah. that's it - because those statistics are really subjective....

Those 5 applicants you mention are still part of those statistics. Perhaps they didn't get the training the FSDO was looking for?

Hooray ignore list.

October 26th, 2009, 21:19	#1
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 6,062	Hiring Good Low Time Pilots Like any profession - there are some young pilots who are exceptional and others who aren't. What do you guys think is the trick to hiring 1000TT pilots that have sound aviation decision making, are capable of handling aircraft and are just professional in their approach to the career. Do you think not hiring anyone who has failed a check ride is a good method? Or............

October 26th, 2009, 21:30	#2
jynxyjoe Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Memphis Posts: 4,247	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots I'd say extended breakin period. Requirements to fly with old crusty captains for first 500 hours. Make it clear we'll toss you for poor attitude. I have no idea. I'm just saying the most rude things I can come up with. __________________ I'm fine with pilots being allowed naps in cockpits, as long as we get to wear pajamas. End 16 hour duty days.

October 26th, 2009, 21:31	#3
mojo6911 Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: GKY Posts: 3,719	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots I think a failure on a checkride is a little harsh. There are some FSDO examiners that go out of their way to fail qualified applicants on CFI rides. Someone who failed their private pilot exam 10 years ago on a short field landing shouldn't be disqualified from a job that they are now qualified for. Training and evaluation needs to be improved, obviously. I have heard of some places using some POS PC-Sim to do new hire evals. It should be done in a real simulator representative of the airplane, at least showing they have BAI skills and can shoot an approach. Last edited by mojo6911; October 26th, 2009 at 21:32.

October 26th, 2009, 21:41	#5
CRJDriver Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: KBOI Posts: 2,748	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots I'd say a thorough interview process and evaluation should give you a good idea if somone is competent enough to work for your company, doesn't matter how many hours. I believe any flying job interview should include HR, technical and scenario based/ADM questions, as well as a sim or flight check. There are low time pilots who are good sticks, have great Decision making skills and know how to deal with people and different situations.

October 26th, 2009, 21:46	#6
splash Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: New Orleans Posts: 907	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots Aviation is a tough racket to start with in the beginning unless you know the right people so I would wonder why anyone would make it even harder. I'd like to see, instead of looking into a failed checkride, the company just spend some time with the applicants just like any other interview. Should a pilot be handed a license if he/she does not make good decisions or not capable of handling the aircraft? Professionalism is a bit different though. Pass or fail a checkride doesn't matter IMHO. __________________ I'd rather call it twice prop instead of multi engine. Last edited by splash; October 26th, 2009 at 21:48.

October 26th, 2009, 21:46	#7
N18040 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 131	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots Come on, it can't be that hard, just start a thread on JetCareers that you have a job opening, and then just pick any of those resumes. Everyone here is an extra pilot right? I don't see why you shouldn't just hire everyone with a JC account.

October 26th, 2009, 22:34	#9
Pilot0486 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Youngstown, OH Posts: 142	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots Definitely fly during the interview. Also have an extensive face to face interview to judge the persons body language and attitude when you put them in a stressful situation. Always a good barrier to see how the candidate acts in a stressful flying situation. Failed checkride isn't always a given, you can have a pilot that squeaks by on checkrides and passes them all that's a terrible pilot, and some really good pilots have failed a CFI checkride. __________________ Bachelor of Music Performance, Youngstown State University Graduated 12/2008, Cum Laude C-SEL, C-MEL, Instrument, CFI, CFII, MEI

October 26th, 2009, 22:59	#11
minitour Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: . Posts: 5,634	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots I'll agree with the attitude thoughts. The best thing you can do is have a good attitude. I can show you how to fly the plane (within reason). I can't teach you to be tolerable for a 10 day trip or open to learning the stuff I'm trying to teach you. -mini __________________

October 26th, 2009, 23:06	#12
BrewMaster Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: KC/The Good Life Posts: 1,052	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots From listening to pilots more experienced than I, a lot of it is ATTITUDE. I'd say the majority of pilots have failed checkrides. Is that a big deal? I don't think so. It's not something to brush under the rug, but there are many more factors that are much more important. I could go either way on sim rides. I think they are great screening tools. But if you have 1000 TT with a pretty good mix of flying and a good amount of instrument time, I would assume that wouldn't be an issue. Maybe just go through an approach plate or enroute chart during the interview. I think having a good work history and good references who will vouch for you is very important. Be able to talk clearly and professionally during the interview is a must. Also have a sense of humor(and know when and when not to use it) and a laid back/easy to get along with personality. All that combined with positive/optimistic attitude and a healthy dose of confidence should help to screen a good candidate. No, I don't interview people or really have any experience doing that. No, I don't think attitude is the ONLY thing that's important. I'm just saying I believe all these things should carry some weight going into an interview. __________________ Flight is the only truly new sensation than men have achieved in modern history.

October 27th, 2009, 00:06	#13
Joe Gremlin Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: K'zoo Posts: 887	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots My method may not be the best, but here's what I'd do. Go fly with them and see if they've got any skills at all. If so, then go drinking with them. Get them good and liquored up and then get them telling war stories. If there's any bats lurking in the belfry, they'll make an appearance before the night is over 9 times out of 10. Not very scientific I know, but I've had serveral experiences where I knew the guy would be a good stick or a loose nut by the time the first night of drinkin' was over.

October 27th, 2009, 00:13	#14
minitour Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: . Posts: 5,634	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots What if they don't drink? -mini __________________

October 27th, 2009, 00:46	#15
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots How long have they had their CFI, how much cross country do they have, and how many students can they handle? __________________ "I admit I have a certain bit of animosity toward the passengers." -jynxjoe jynxyjoe

October 27th, 2009, 00:51	#16
Boris Badenov Old Skool Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: River city named after "Louis". But not the good one. Posts: 3,527	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots Don't trust people who don't drink. Good low time pilots is a contradiction in terms. Failed checkrides are ok because I have and I'm God's gift to aviation. There. I win jynxy. __________________ "An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?" - Axel Oxenstierna

October 27th, 2009, 02:09	#19
RICHARD5 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: homeless, jobless Posts: 631	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots Mr Low Time Pilot needs some life experience. Say, around 50 yrs of age transitioning from another career. When do I start?

October 27th, 2009, 02:31	#20
Number1atNumber2 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Denver Posts: 1,332 Blog Entries: 4	Re: Hiring Good Low Time Pilots I'll echo the attitude idea, that can go a long way. As for the checkride thing, I wouldn't even bother asking it except to find out how they handled a fail, not IF they ever failed. I'd rather know what kind of a pilot they are now, and not so much the pilot they were in training. As for interview questions, I'd ask them WWYD situational questions, preferably from a time you've had. The thing that sucks about interviews is so many people try to say what they think the person wants to hear. __________________ Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength and move on - Henry Rollins CFI, CFII, ATP, Lear 25, 31, 35, 55. You're gonna flunk marriage if you can't pass the oral.

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