Announcement/GUT spilling time LONG READ!

[gtlyon]

I hope I am posting this in the proper section.If not my apologies nd please feel free to move it to the appropriate section.I picked general topics because this is not only an announcement but a little info about myself as well.

So as of 2 weeks and 2 days ago I am a Private Pilot. I am currently attending Career Pilot School aka CPS in Missouri. I finished up my PPL with CPS. I arrived here on June 30th and on July 8th I completed my PPL.Now I am working on my instrument rating,almost done with that.I have actually experienced 1.3 hrs of actual one word WOW. Your mind can play nasty tricks on you when in IMC.I truly have a new respect for clouds LOL. I wont go to far into details,but feel free to PM if you want and I will happily share my experience with you--maybe Ill even post it in another forum. Oh and for the record the fellas here at CPS have more than exceeded what they offer on the website. Great bunch of guys,solid equipment and have gone above and beyond for me so far.

So on to the gut spilling part. I am 34 years old and I guess you could call me a career changer---but I haven't really had a career to change.I am happily married with 2 boys. I started flying about 10 years ago but just recently had the opportunity to fulfill my dreams of being a professional pilot. I intend on becoming a CFI(part-time) and working another part-time job to keep a steady income. We all know that this industry is turbulent to say the least,hence 2 jobs lol.

So heres my thing, the day I left my family to come here( I am from California btw), it was hard to say good bye.Anyone who has a family knows this exact feeling I am talking about. So I am on the flight out here saying to myself "F$%# this I dint want to leave I can't do this!'' I know one of the things that comes with being a pro-pilot is having to say good-bye all the time.Its hard. It hurt me. It was a really eye opener and I am not even to the top of this career ladder yet. I keep asking myself " Is this what I really want? Is this really for me''? I know that most of this is coming form missing home,is a natural feeling.But you really begin to second guess yourself. So far I am doing alright, although there are some tough days. Its not so much the training its the ''other'' stuff that makes it hard.

My current feelings( and this really makes me angry) is I don't like this anymore........but........I know thats not true.It cant be. I know thats not how I really feel. This is my dream and for years I have dreamed of doing this. So why in the hell do I feel like this? Have anyone of you out there felt like this? You may ask--if you don't like it why do it. Good question.When I think about what I want to do with my life...aviation is always at the top..ALWAYS. It gets to the point where it(these feelings) hard for me to even concentrate on my studies.

So thats me in a nut shell---its a long read and I thank those who took the time to read it. Feel free to PM to leave comments and advice. I just wanted to vent you all of you out there!

Jeremy

[Toria]

Jeremy, we all cycle in life with emotions. It must be hard to be away from home, but you are working on your life long goal. Without sacrifice, no one goes anywhere. It takes many, many hours and lots of compromise to become who we want, especially when it is a professional career that requires a lot of training. When you finally achieve your goal and look back on now, I hope you can look back with pride and feel good about the accomplishment at hand and the sacrifices you made to get there. You are not alone. I wanted to quit my residency a couple of times, but stuck it out and now I have a career I enjoy very much. The time will go quickly in the long run of life, it just is painful minute by minute right now. Good luck to you and be assured the sacrifice is worth the outcome.

[tonyw]

You have to decide how bad you want it.

You will likely be away from home a lot if you choose aviation as a career. If you have a hard time leaving the family behind, maybe this isn't a good career for you.

And it's better to get out now than go into the field and hate it.

[3green]

Gtylon

I know one of the things that comes with being a pro-pilot is having to say good-bye all the time.

This will never change. This happens everytime I commute to work. You find yourself putting on the uniform, packing the rollerboard and then asking yourself is this worth it on the ride to the airport? If you know now that you don't like this aspect, I would definitely not pursue the professional pilot route any further. Being an airline pilot means living on the road, out of a suitcase and away from your family. And if you don't commute, you never know when your base will close and you'll be forced too...

Toria

The time will go quickly in the long run of life, it just is painful minute by minute right now.

Unfortunately, the time does go quickly when your working 14-16 hr duty days doing a bunch of quick turns! LOL. But, you can't get back those moments with family, friends and loved ones once you've missed them and that is where it hurts in the long run...


In the end, what is the pilot career worth to you? Being away from the family so you can be "liv'n the dream". Unfortunately, I've found the airline pilots with families that are the most content with the career and are not disgruntled are the ones that can put those thoughts(family, kids, etc) behind them on the road...

But hey it isn't all negative, I get to tell everyone "I fly for a living!"

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by 3green

Gtylon This will never change. This happens everytime I commute to work. You find yourself putting on the uniform, packing the rollerboard and then asking yourself is this worth it on the ride to the airport? If you know now that you don't like this aspect, I would definitely not pursue the professional pilot route any further. Being an airline pilot means living on the road, out of a suitcase and away from your family. And if you don't commute, you never know when your base will close and you'll be forced too...

Toria Unfortunately, the time does go quickly when your working 14-16 hr duty days doing a bunch of quick turns! LOL. But, you can't get back those moments with family, friends and loved ones once you've missed them and that is where it hurts in the long run...


In the end, what is the pilot career worth to you? Being away from the family so you can be "liv'n the dream". Unfortunately, I've found the airline pilots with families that are the most content with the career and are not disgruntled are the ones that can put those thoughts(family, kids, etc) behind them on the road...

But hey it isn't all negative, I get to tell everyone "I fly for a living!"

Honest post, very true.

It is fun when you're behind the controls, but after awhile its just a job. A job that keeps you away from the important things, long duty days, 4 day trips, staying in hotels half the year etc. And for what? To collect a paycheck easily matched at Home Depot or Lowes? But Home Depot and Lowes will actually put something away for your retirement.

So really when you break it down nice a simple, just exactly WHAT are you getting out of this job?? A chance to fly an airplane 3-4 days a week? Because you certainly aren't working you're way to the big $200k salary...and you definitely aren't putting in your time for a decent retirement.

I don't know...sometimes I love the job, sometimes I really hate it. I leave for a 4 day trip today, to get one day off and then go on a 3 day trip. That 7 days on the friggin road, 6 nights and brief 24hrs at home with my wife. Right now I hate it. I can't imagine having a child with these schedules sometimes.

[moxiepilot]

first off, congradulations on your accomplishment.

second, bear in mind that there are plenty of professional flight careers where you can balance work and home life and only need one job.

the good times will come

[Toria]

Originally Posted by 3green

Being away from the family so you can be "liv'n the dream".

I was referring strictly to this training time. The career avenue chosen afterward is something else. There are more aviation opportunities than strictly flying the line on four day trips. There can be some sort of balance, can't there?

Jeremy, I wish you only the best.

[phoenix 23684]

My advice, is finish your ratings, and see what happens from there, you can always just part time CFI as you mentioned and that may be all you need at present, the regional life is tough, tougher if you commute. I think once you get into the majors things get a little better, but who knows. Hang in there, can't quit half way. I'm 33 and know where you are coming from. I'm not too thrilled with the QOL and everything else, but sitting in that cockpit is the best part of the job..

[gtlyon]

I truly appreciate all of the PM's and posts here. With out trying to sound bad here, its always nice to know you are not alone. The words of encouragement are refreshing.

I will keep my head up and plug away.

Thank you all for your support. I will keep everyone posted about my progress.

Jeremy

[3green]

There are more aviation opportunities than strictly flying the line on four day trips. There can be some sort of balance, can't there?

I wish it were just 4 day trips. "transition" at the beginning of the month is the worse. They had me on 6 days, off 1, and back on for 3. DOH! Too bad the companies don't think like you and believe in some type of balance.

In the end, everyone has to do it to know what its like. Nothing like looking out at FL370 on a sunrise knowing your at the helm. Too bad we can't drag our sig. others with us on our trips! that would make it the best job... that and a pay raise!

[surreal1221]

Maybe I missed it. . .or maybe I just didn't read far enough. . .

But what exactly do you not enjoy?

Surely you enjoy SOMETHING about flying. Now, if you honestly don't enjoy anything related. . .then yeah - don't put yourself, and your family, through the misery. Find something else to do.

But surely, you didn't leave your family to find out that there is nothing that you enjoy.

A large majority of us here on JC are flying for 121 Passenger operations - and well honestly - I have little room to talk - but it's really not all that it is cracked up to be. I honestly wish I had gone through things in an extremely different fashion - but I didn't. Nevertheless, I've found certain things that I enjoy about this type of flying, but I've also had a nice dose of reality (before even coming into this game) from those here on JC.

I hope you find what you're looking for - otherwise, you'll really be missing out on a potentially great career. It may not be flying jets with 6-500 people in the back, but I'm sure you'll find something you can enjoy. Take that enjoyment, and find a sub-sector of this industry to enjoy.

Good luck - you sould like you want it; which is extremely refreshing considering the usual cast members.

[Boris Badenov]

Well, since everyone is being so wishy-washy and reasonable: NO DONT DO IT GET OUT NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN. I mean, really, do what you like, but what I got from your post is that you're lucky enough to have "early-onset" remission from Aviation Nerd Disease. Which means you can still quit before you rack up enough debt that you're essentially an indentured Aviation Serf.

The thing is, I'll bet you don't quit. I'll bet you decide to soldier on to Live The Dream. And I'll bet we'll get to hear you regret it, sooner or later. Because no one ever, ever listens when it comes to "should I be a pilot!?" posts. Ever. Not once. Which means that I'm wasting my time by typing this. Crap.

[gtlyon]

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

Well, since everyone is being so wishy-washy and reasonable: NO DONT DO IT GET OUT NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN. I mean, really, do what you like, but what I got from your post is that you're lucky enough to have "early-onset" remission from Aviation Nerd Disease. Which means you can still quit before you rack up enough debt that you're essentially an indentured Aviation Serf.

The thing is, I'll bet you don't quit. I'll bet you decide to soldier on to Live The Dream. And I'll bet we'll get to hear you regret it, sooner or later. Because no one ever, ever listens when it comes to "should I be a pilot!?" posts. Ever. Not once. Which means that I'm wasting my time by typing this. Crap.

Point taken. No I wont quit because I am not a quitter. Is that a reason to keep going? Nope. I will keep going because I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I do love to fly .Good thing is I really wont ''rack up debt'' to do this. I have read many a thread on this forum about ''should I be a pilot''. To clear it up some thats not what I was really askin even though it came of looking that way. Basically I was just looking to see if any shared these feelings I have during their climb to the top.Just looking for some validation. Which I have found from many humble PMs and posts here.

And Boris the ''livin the dream'' part of this is a true eye opener. The majority think that the ''dream'' is being an airline pilot and nothing else.I have never had the opportunity to go for my true dream. I think thats what really got me. Here I am going for what I want and its not easy. I got complacent and took things for granted. I have learned allot about myself just in the last 4 weeks of training and being away form the family.

Again I go back to the validation of my feelings---this whole thing is a great learning experience for me and in return I hope I can guide or offer some advice or help to another person that wants to go for their dreams as well.

Thank you all for your posts---this has really helped!
Jeremy

[3green]

Boris your right, he should get out and people have told him that. Like you said most of us have gotten the same advice at some point in our aviation careers. And what did I do with that advice? I kept going even though I knew it. And now I've ended up at a 121 carrier about to furlough! hahaha... the sweet irony.

Its the "aviation-crack" he's hooked on. Each hit(instructor and aircraft) he/she takes is pricey, the high only last about 2 hours(including preflight/post flight) and it isn't getting any cheaper. Unfortunately, he won't be able to get off it until he hits rock bottom(ie, furlough, jobless, divorce, kids forget who mommy/daddy are, etc)! LOL.

Trust me I know, I'm a recovering aviation-addict

[Toria]

Originally Posted by 3green

Trust me I know, I'm a recovering aviation-addict

There are a few reasons I am not flying the line and have stayed in GA. Scheduling was one of the very big reasons I am not in a full time aviation career.

I am very familiar with sacrifice to achieve personal goals and being proud of what has been accomplished. The only way to avoid the "wish I would have" or "what would my life be like if I just stuck it out" questions later in life is to finish the ratings and go from there. If being away from home and family is not what can be handled, pick a different way to feed the aviation need. You cannot be content and happy in life unless you are content and happy with yourself, not filled with self doubt and regret.

[dbrault17]

My operation threw me out on the street this week. This is the 11th time I have had to move in six years chasing the 'dream'. The 11th time I have to tell my friends and family goodbye and head to the airport with the deepest pit in my stomach knowing I wont be able to share all those little everyday moments with them possible for many months.

I was talking to another pilot yesterday who also landed on the street from the same place. His family decided not to move to the area (thank god) when he got this job so he had to commute. So for twenty days out of the month he was gone from his two young kids trying to 'make it in this industry'. We were discussing how his kids had to go on state aid health care now. Hes no newbie either. In fact has been chasing this thing for about a decade. What makes you so special that this wont happen to you?

Personally, (and remember it doesnt matter what I think) I think you are being very selfish trying to chase some kind of dream that may or may not ever pan out putting those that you really care about through so much hardship. How old are your kids? 8 9 10 years old? How many years of 'paying your dues' do yo think you have to go through? By the time you 'get there' are they gonna know who you are? Maybe by the time you 'get there' they will have grown up and gone off to college.

Congrats on your private, its a big accomplishment but on this journey its more like a wiggling of the toes than a first step. For the most part I dont care if you actually pursue it or not. I think everyone should chase their dreams for awhile. But you decided to have kids.

I say get your ratings fly for fun and pursue something else that will let you raise your children. Like someone else DONT GET INTO DEBT AND BECOME AN AVIATION SLAVE LIKE THE REST OF US! Take a stab at the airline career after those kids walk across the stage at their college graduation.

[staplegun]

I fly international for "Southernjets," and have for the past 8 years. I've also flown domestic here for 6 years, as well as having flown domestic at another airline for 3 years and a commuter airline for 1 year. I was active duty Navy for 6 & 1/2 years, with 2 West-Pac deployments of 8+ months including both work-up cycles - essentially at sea for 22 months of a 33 month tour.

I've had my share of time away from home...

That being said, other than my Navy sea tour, I believe I've spent more time at home than the average career "professional." I also don't bring the job home with me.

I have several friends who are partners in law firms. One in particular who I went to high school with tells me every time he sees me he envys my time off. He routinely works 60-80 hour weeks, some weekends, home well past 7:00 pm lots of nights. Another who does international law does all that and travels a lot.

Look at the schedule of a doctor - they're never home!

Entrepreneurs, business executives, well-paid sales executives - they all spend a lot of time at work and not a lot of time at home. Even average 40-hour-a-week worker, with commute time etc. is only with the family after 6:00pm every day (OK, he probably gets most weekends off...)

When I'm off, I'm home all day. I get to spend lots of time with the wife & kids. I don't have to answer the phone or pager on my time off.

Now, I'm more senior than most who post here. Lots of guys/gals on commuter schedules or junior don't have as much time off, and throw in a commute and it gets worse.

I'm just saying that it's kinda a mis-conception that people in "airline world" are "never home..."

FWIW, JMHO...



Kevin

[Boris Badenov]

Originally Posted by staplegun

Now, I'm more senior than most who post here.

You're also more senior (or at least have a better job) than most of the people who post here will EVER be/have. Which is great, and I'm sure you earned every bit of it, but senior widget captain is probably not who a new guy should be measuring his career expectations against, IMHO.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

You're also more senior (or at least have a better job) than most of the people who post here will EVER be/have. Which is great, and I'm sure you earned every bit of it, but senior widget captain is probably not who a new guy should be measuring his career expectations against, IMHO.

FWIW, I'm a first officer on the B-777, not captain.

I agree and I'm not trying to say anything about career expectations.

My point was that people talk about being away from home in the flying business without really considering what that means. Many professions entail longer hours than 8/day or 9-to-5, and when you add a daily commute the hours away from home of someone who is "home every day" many times is more than the hours away from home for a flying job.


Kevin

[Toria]

Originally Posted by staplegun

Look at the schedule of a doctor - they're never home!

That is absoulutely the truth. I cannot tell you how many 100 hour work weeks I have had over the past 15 years. There are 168 hours in a week. Put commuting into that, errands, grocery, etc, and I am home less than 5 hours a night only to sleep and start again; or I sleep in my office on a portable cot and do not go home.

I do love my job, but have also paid my dues to get where I am today. Not working many 100 hour weeks any more.

[Bog]

Jeremy: great idea to share what you're feeling. You sir, are NOT alone in those feelings.

When I decided to change careers in 1998 and go into professional flying, I was 27 and hopelessly single. I was starting to feel like I'd never get married, so I figured "why not?" I had no-one to leave behind, I was single & free.

I went through ATP's program in San Diego, answered the phones in JAX, instructed in San Antonio, got hired by Mesa/Air Midwest, and proceeded to bounce around 5 more states over 4+ years. A few months after upgrading, I got bounced outta PHX and went to Nashville. Shortly after getting there, I started dating my now-wife. When she and I met, I had officially given up on ever getting married. She changed that.

7 months before we got married, I changed jobs. The new schedule is 8 days on, 6 days off. Engaged, but not married, it didn't bother me at all being gone for those stretches. That changed as soon as I hit the road after the wedding. Perhaps I still need to get used to the idea that I'm "leaving my wife behind." Perhaps something inside of me really does want to be home 24/7. At this point, I wonder how I'm going to feel when we start having children. Can I really do this for 30 more years? We'll need the Magic 8 Ball for that.

For the last few months, I've been open to a new line of employment. If I can find a job that will allow us to pay the mortgage, eat, and put a few dollars into savings, I'd leave the cockpit. I have one "iron in the fire" for a job like that, and am waiting for the company to start hiring. Perhaps I'll peruse the classifieds to see what's out there. I realize, though, that once I leave the flight deck, it'll be hard to get hired back.

I can't tell you what'll work for you. If you can find a well-enough paying instructor job, that'd keep you home at night. Perhaps a good corporate or charter pilot gig would work. It's a tough call, whatever you choose. I wish you all the best in figuring that one out, because it won't be easy.

-Bog

[3green]

I'm surprised people compare being a doctor to being an airline pilot. I have never heard of a doctor starting back at residency salary or seniority when(or if they ever) get let go from their job? Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption???

Working long hours and being home for a couple hours, beats being on the road by a mile. If you have kids their birthdays, school events and special occasions will be scheduled on days your on the road and can't be there. I don't care if you have 20 days off a month you will miss important events because of the job. Its just a question of what people are willing to put up with...

All of us have been there trying to "live the dream". In the end, I think we all had to find out on our own if it was worth it or not. I'm betting(especially in these times) that its becoming painfully true it ain't all what its cracked up to be.

[MichaelCPS]

Originally Posted by 3green

I'm surprised people compare being a doctor to being an airline pilot.

Being a doctor these days is not all it is cracked up to be. Take your internship and residency. You are basically slave labor. There are not really any work rules (though they might have instituted some rest rules recently, buy I don't know if they were hospital/university specific or universal). The hours are long and typically very stressful in the first 5-10 years. I would have to say there is a pretty high rate of divorce. Is the payoff good 10 years down the road? Maybe. Do you get on with a good practice? Are you in a field with easy hours, little to no on-call, big money, and low malpractice insurance?

I would say being a doctor is very similar to being a professional pilot. A lot of sacrifice and hard work in the early years with the potential for a nice payoff later. While airline pilots worry when the next furlough/bankruptcy/merger is going to occur, doctors are worried about the next death/lawsuit/FDA ruling/etc etc.

Bottom line is this: every job out there is tough at the entry level. I know this personally. Prior to getting into aviation, I tried getting a job as a Wildlife Biologist. Most employers were looking for people with PHd's!!!! Those jobs paid $18k/year!!!! I couldn't get a job with my credentials and I couldn't live on that salary. Sound like any posts you guys have read on JC?

Michael

[learflyer]

Originally Posted by Toria

There are a few reasons I am not flying the line and have stayed in GA. Scheduling was one of the very big reasons I am not in a full time aviation career.

I am very familiar with sacrifice to achieve personal goals and being proud of what has been accomplished. The only way to avoid the "wish I would have" or "what would my life be like if I just stuck it out" questions later in life is to finish the ratings and go from there. If being away from home and family is not what can be handled, pick a different way to feed the aviation need. You cannot be content and happy in life unless you are content and happy with yourself, not filled with self doubt and regret.

Toria, what did you do before, and what are you in now? Medicine? PM me if you want.

[Toria]

Originally Posted by 3green

I'm surprised people compare being a doctor to being an airline pilot. I have never heard of a doctor starting back at residency salary or seniority when(or if they ever) get let go from their job? Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption???

My residency (Anesthesiology, mid 1990'S) paid 24K to 28K per year and required me to live in New York. A studio in New York that was not rat and roach infested ran approx 2.4K per month. I was in the hospital 24/7 most of the time. My call schedule was MIC (mandatory in-house) every other night and every other weekend for three years. We had fully scheduled day cases and then took MIC at 15:00 to go overnight and on to another full day of cases, then went home to sleep (around 20:00). Yes, new rules have been adopted, mostly due to liability. They have not ablated long hours entirely. My first job as an associate was 32K per year and had only one night a week less call. Second year was at 36K. It takes a while to buy into partnership and get better hours, and better pay.

Interns were treated worse than the garbage boy. Interns were paid 19K per year. Seems similar to the "crash pad" stories. Undergraduate and med school: 268K combined for tuition, fees, books. Studying was a minimum of 40 hours per week in addition to attending classes, every day, no matter what. Med School classes are M-F 08:00 to 17:00 and anatomy lab all day Saturday.

I cannot see how MIC day after day is so very different from line trips except that I am not in the air when I work. I am still directly responsible for the lives of my patients. Making a mistake by a single decimal place can cause serious complication or death. There is no one designated to double check me most of the time. One single, inadvertent mistake can end my career. I think there is plenty of pressure for perfection in both careers. My patients cannot afford for me to be less than absolutely 100% all of the time, no matter what.

If you want to play golf every Wednesday, have no call or emergencies ever, and get paid a terrific wage, one can choose to become a Dermatologist .

By the way, I love my job and am very happy doing it. As far as I am concerned, all of that was worth what I have professionally today.