How intense is IOE?

[taseal]

I have a friend who finished training at republic for 170s... he says the IOE is intense. they want u to do walkaround and do all the paperwork in about 11 mins... he says that right now he is at about 30 for everything and they aren't too happy...

it just sounds crazy to do a walkaround a bigass 170, and do all the paperwork (what kinda paperwork does the FO do?) in 11 mins.

I mean it takes me 5-10 mins to walkaround a 172, and setup my charts, and plug in my headset and all that good stuff (doesn't include TO data card)... I can't imagine doing a 170 in 11-15 mins.

[gtpilot]

You'll find a groove but you won't be that fast just out of the sim. You'll find the 11 mins won't be a problem once you've done a couple of reps.

Just curious, is this a few isolated captains or system wide? I flew with one IOE captain with my company who was like this and the other one said up front - 'Take you time, if we have to delay, no problem, let's just get it right!'

[taseal]

Originally Posted by gtpilot

You'll find a groove but you won't be that fast just out of the sim. You'll find the 11 mins won't be a problem once you've done a couple of reps.

Just curious, is this a few isolated captains or system wide? I flew with one IOE captain with my company who was like this and the other one said up front - 'Take you time, if we have to delay, no problem, let's just get it right!'

not sure. he said he has only flown with 2 IOE CAs so far... i'll ask him...

its just, 11 min sounds way too quick. almost not too safe. like he told me that sometimes he has to wait to count the fuel leak drops. because they are allowed to have like x drops a min or something. thats a min right there.

[Polar742]

OE is, I think, the funnest and easiest part of training.

What your friend is going through is an organizational and efficiency issue. OE is used to build habit patterns, and allow an individual to get acclimatized to the line environment. Speed comes through practice and experience.

When I got on line at PO, we had 1.5 hours to get the plane ready and I was rushed. I didn't even do the preflight!!!

There is a guide at RW floating around to help get F/Os organized. I heard Airdale has a copy of it.

[CirrusMonkey]

IOE was way laid back at PSA.

[casey]

Originally Posted by taseal

he has to wait to count the fuel leak drops. because they are allowed to have like x drops a min or something. thats a min right there.

protip: do it like a doctor.

count drops for 15 seconds, multiply by 4 == drops per minute.

[cfii2007]

So what exactly does IEO entail?

[Polar742]

FYI, in my EJet time, I never had to count any drops.

[Orange Anchor]

Originally Posted by taseal

I have a friend who finished training at republic for 170s... he says the IOE is intense.

Then there may be a problem with the training program. Why rush through the preflight? Why rush through the paper work? Seems a wrong emphasis on speed which is NOT an indicator of proficiency.

The IOEs I conducted were not intense. I flew the first legs to allow the F/O or Capt to get used to the environment. As the trip went along, the newbie assumed more and more duties until s/he was running full speed in the everyday, real world.

IF the check airman is loading up the F/O with a demand for speed, remember.. ugly things happen when people are rushed. Take the time you need.

[Polar742]

FWIW, Republic's training program does not encourage rushing.

Your friend is still getting his(her) feet wet.

Most of the OE Captains operate the way OA (Hi, by the way) explains.

There are alot of tasks to do in a short time. It takes several legs to get comfortable, especially if one is new to the 121 environment.

As your friend gets more experience, things will fall into place and the operation will go smoother. The 170 is intesive to get ready to fly, as there is alot of programming to do.

I broke a 30 minute turn this way:
As soon as the securing check is done, go preflight prior to all the pax getting off the plane
Come up front, and start getting the W&B form started
Get the ATIS
If the CA is upfront, get the clearance
Do your setup flow
Departure Brief
Before Start checklist

[Clocks]

The hardest part is knowing what to do and when it is a logical time to do it.

If you don't know, then its easy to sit there during a tight turn and stare at the ACARS waiting for it to reset for example, rather than doing the stuff you can do (get ATIS, look up runway data, do your walkaround, flows).

Anyways I don't know how a company would come up with "11 minutes" as a time limit . The more you do it the faster it gets and the easier it is to deal with the rare occurrences. I've never timed myself, and my IOE captain never told me to go faster.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by gtpilot

You'll find a groove but you won't be that fast just out of the sim. You'll find the 11 mins won't be a problem once you've done a couple of reps.

Just curious, is this a few isolated captains or system wide? I flew with one IOE captain with my company who was like this and the other one said up front - 'Take you time, if we have to delay, no problem, let's just get it right!'

ACARS is nice. . .so I hear.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

ACARS is nice. . .so I hear.

Every time I have to listen to ATIS, call clearance, or do a (omg) paper W&B...I think "man this sucks...it's just like the freaking wright brothers".

[Nick]

Having a time restriction of eleven minutes would be quite bizarre. There are walkarounds in different conditions that take different amounts of time. There are different issues in paperwork for different flights and some will take longer than others.

I can't imagine a blanket restriction of eleven minutes being used on IOE, nor would I want it to be used.


Taseal -

My take on the original question is, IOE was fun. After all the stuff in the sims and FTDs and the classroom and learning the flows and so on, it was great to know that you probably weren't going to have an emergency for once...finally time to be able to fly the plane.

I'd pay a few dollars to go back in time and watch my IOE captain walk into the hotel door upon our arrival back at the hotel after a few rounds of beers and pool on one of the first few layovers. I had the same guy for both trips, a four-day and a three-day. He was great.

[Orange Anchor]

Originally Posted by Polar742

FWIW, Republic's training program does not encourage rushing.

Your friend is still getting his(her) feet wet.

Most of the OE Captains operate the way OA (Hi, by the way) explains.

Hi..

Good. The workload is completely different on the line after x sim sessions where you hair is on fire and you are running out of fuel. In some ways, it begins to seem as if NOTHING is really happening. And you keep waiting for that 'click' that means something just got programmed into the sim and all hell is about to break loose.

I broke a 30 minute turn this way:
As soon as the securing check is done, go preflight prior to all the pax getting off the plane
Come up front, and start getting the W&B form started
Get the ATIS
If the CA is upfront, get the clearance
Do your setup flow
Departure Brief
Before Start checklist

Pacing and workload. Good advice.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Every time I have to listen to ATIS, call clearance, or do a (omg) paper W&B...I think "man this sucks...it's just like the freaking wright brothers".

Heh. If it gets down to paper W&B here, they'll probably just cancel the flight. They pay all this people in a section called "load control" to do that for us. Which is why you often see Pinnacle and NWA planes sitting in a de-ice pad "waiting for numbers." If things work out right, it's pretty quick. If there's a hiccup (like the rampers forget to upload the cargo numbers or the gate agent forgets to input the passenger count), you're waiting till you hit age 65.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Polar742

I broke a 30 minute turn this way:
As soon as the securing check is done, go preflight prior to all the pax getting off the plane
Come up front, and start getting the W&B form started
Get the ATIS
If the CA is upfront, get the clearance
Do your setup flow
Departure Brief
Before Start checklist

A few slight amendments that maybe I'd make.

1) If you do a paper W&B, you can fill some of the stuff in cruise on the previous flight, if you know you'll have a quick turn. (Things like BOW won't change)...

2) If you have some dead time between parking brake application and "securing" / "shutdown" / "parking checklist" and you have ACARS, you can request the ATIS. Or you can always pop it on the speakers if you're not ACARS equipped. (Have it as the standby on the secondary stack and you're ready to go) [and if you're really good you can squeeze in a clearance]

I personally like doing the setup flow before the preflight, so I can sit down and everything's ready to go, just gotta get the clearance and boom, ready to go

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Heh. If it gets down to paper W&B here, they'll probably just cancel the flight.

All I got to say is P**** A$$ RJ Drivers .



I average six paper W&B a day, sometimes up to eleven.

[SmitteyB]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Every time I have to listen to ATIS, call clearance, or do a (omg) paper W&B...I think "man this sucks...it's just like the freaking wright brothers".

My dear god.

[SmoothLanderJ]

Originally Posted by SmitteyB

My dear god.

LOL!!!.....

[Clocks]

Ladies and gentlemen from the flight deck we'd like to welcome you aboard continental express flight 1 non-stop service from ashtabula to cleveland. We're just finishing up some paperwork up front and we'll be ready to push back from the gate in just a few minutes. Flight time today is 2 hours and 11 minutes. We are expecting a pretty bumpy ride for the first half hour as we clear the trees at the end of the field. We'll update you again once we're in the air with the weather in cleveland and gate information. For now please sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight.

[taseal]

so what do you guys do as far as paper work?

I guess you setup the FMC and all that too

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by taseal

I have a friend who finished training at republic for 170s... he says the IOE is intense. they want u to do walkaround and do all the paperwork in about 11 mins... he says that right now he is at about 30 for everything and they aren't too happy...

Honestly, 30 mins sounds a little too long to me, even for a new guy. He's probably getting too worked up and checking and re-checking himself over and over again because he's afraid he's missed something. I've seen it a million times. Guys get so worried that they've missed something in the FMS programming that it takes them 10 minutes to do something that they can really get done in 2 minutes.

Originally Posted by taseal

its just, 11 min sounds way too quick. almost not too safe. like he told me that sometimes he has to wait to count the fuel leak drops. because they are allowed to have like x drops a min or something. thats a min right there.

Counting fuel drops? Seriously? Good grief, tell the guy to just walk around the airplane and make sure everything looks right. Nobody needs to be counting fuel drops when pre-flighting an airplane. No wonder it's taking him so long. I can do a walk-around in about 2 minutes on a 717. I could do it in about 90 seconds on the CRJ. (excluding first flight of the day pre-flights with the TSA security nonsense)

[777forever]

IOE was fun

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

ACARS is nice. . .so I hear.

ACARS is friggin spectacular