To buy or not to buy an airplane.....

GreenDayPilot · May 6th, 2008, 16:42

....That is the question.

So my friend wants to get all his licenses right away. He's about to go for his PPL in the upcoming month and wants to get started with everything else right away. He's really leaning towards purchasing a 152 and building a bunch of time in it. Of course, he'll have to go somewhere else for his COMM and Multi stuff, if he so desires. I told him I probably wouldnt charge him for my CFI services since he's a real cool friend AND if he let me borrow the airplane whenever I wanted

.

Anyway, what's your opinion on it? Should he buy it or not? He can afford the payments and all that good stuff right now and he's been talking about buying an airplane for a while now.... but is it a really a smart way to go about getting your ratings and what not?

Thanks

Maurus · May 6th, 2008, 16:54

Make sure the annual is relatively fresh and the engine on the aircraft has less that 1500 hours since the last major overhaul. This way he can sell it for around how much he bought it for.

If he has the money to buy it, build time and then sell it it could be a very good investment considering he wont need to pay for instruction, and overhaul, or annual by following what I said. A 152 isn't exactly a fuel guzzler at its mighty 4 gal/hr so I would think it would be a good cost efficient way to build time.

I say go for it with the parameters I set. The last thing he wants is a 152 he has to put money into just to be able to fly.

Stomp16 · May 6th, 2008, 17:18

Don't forget about Instrument. If he's gonna get Instrument rated, most 52's aren't IFR certified.

jrh · May 6th, 2008, 17:26

If it's an average Joe who doesn't know anything about flying, I say rent for the private license, then buy a plane for instrument training and time building, once they are certain they like flying and have a better idea of how a plane will fit in to their life.

If he's absolutely sure this flying thing is what he wants to do and--here is the key--he has a good mentor like yourself to help him select a plane--then I say buy it from Day 1. I think owning a plane for training is awesome, but there are also a lot of pitfalls if a person doesn't either know what they're doing or have good guidance when getting their first set of wings.

Also, my professional advice is to be careful what you offer him in the way of free instruction. I'm sure he's a good friend, but teaching someone from start to finish is a big committment that will take a lot of time. You might regret it later if you follow through with doing it all for free. It sounds all nice and cheery until one day you've had a long day at work, all you want to do is go home and relax, but instead you have to spend a couple more hours at the airport helping your friend perfect his landing flare...all for free.

Doing a free flight review or insurance checkout or something like that is no big deal, I just think an entire rating for free has the potential to put a real strain on the friendship. At least it could for me. Good fences make good neighbors, ya know?

Matt13C · May 6th, 2008, 17:28

I thought about it. But most 152's are not IFR rated also the Comm has to be taken in a complex aircraft as I understand, which the 152 is not.

I could not find any savings after I calculated the cost of tie down, fuel, oil and normal repairs.

Even if it takes him 70 hours to get his PPL, assuming he has the bare minimum 10 hours solo, he is only saving 3000 on you teaching him for free. He can easily find a 152 to rent that would be the same or cheaper than owning it per hour flown. Plus, he still will need to pay for his comm, instrument, multi and anything beyond that.

If he plans on keeping it, then I say go for it, but I could not find any benefit to buying over renting when it came to only building time.

GreenDayPilot · May 6th, 2008, 17:45

Thanks a lot for the replies. I've been taking it all into consideration, especially since he's asking me for advice. From the free instruction to the actual comparison over renting, its a lot to consider.... anyway, thanks again.

gomntwins · May 6th, 2008, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt13C

I thought about it. But most 152's are not IFR rated also the Comm has to be taken in a complex aircraft as I understand, which the 152 is not.

I could not find any savings after I calculated the cost of tie down, fuel, oil and normal repairs.

Even if it takes him 70 hours to get his PPL, assuming he has the bare minimum 10 hours solo, he is only saving 3000 on you teaching him for free. He can easily find a 152 to rent that would be the same or cheaper than owning it per hour flown. Plus, he still will need to pay for his comm, instrument, multi and anything beyond that.

If he plans on keeping it, then I say go for it, but I could not find any benefit to buying over renting when it came to only building time.

I think the best way to cut costs and make a 152 an ok training expense would be to buy an IFR 152, do your private and instrument... do your initial commercial in a multi followed by a single engine commercial add on in your own aircraft (you don't need complex for an add-on), followed by getting the MEI is your initial with the CFI and CFII in your own aircraft. You really only need to go outside for 2 ratings- multi commercial and MEI.

I ran the numbers a few years ago and it did work out in my favor. I just didn't want the headache. Owning an aircraft is a lot of responsibility (which I was fine with) with the potential for a lot of unforseen costs (which I was not fine with). Thinking back to my pre-private days... I don't know how well a non-rated pilot would do with aircraft ownership. Unless you have a lot of background in aviation or know somebody with a lot of experience a non-rated person would be going into this purchase blind.

Edit: I missed the part where he is going to have his private. I don't know about those numbers. I think it'd be ok. good luck.

Dan208B · May 6th, 2008, 22:15

Also, just keep in mind its not just the payments that cost. Make certain he factors in cost for insurance, maintenance (incl. annuals, preventative maintenance, as well as some sort of reserve fund or something in case you have a really expensive annual from a blown jug or something), fuel costs, tiedown or hanger rent, etc. Airplane ownership generally costs considerably more than most people figure to start with. Thats not to say there aren't certain advantages, the biggest one in my opinion being that you know you were the only one flying the airplane. When you open the hanger you dont have to worry about what the last moron did with it...

Crockrocket94 · May 7th, 2008, 05:51

Just for the record the Commercial Initial rating must be done in a complex. He could always go do all the ratings, then do his Comm Multi, then do a Comm. SEAD in his plane...

anyhow...

Yeah about the whole free idea, I wouldnt do it for free, because, i mean, its not like you are helping him move into a new house here, this is a long hard commitment.

t-cart · May 7th, 2008, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crockrocket94

Just for the record the Commercial Initial rating must be done in a complex. He could always go do all the ratings, then do his Comm Multi, then do a Comm. SEAD in his plane...

anyhow...

Yeah about the whole free idea, I wouldnt do it for free, because, i mean, its not like you are helping him move into a new house here, this is a long hard commitment.

HaHa, I dont know if I am legal, but I took my commercial ride in a Beech Sport, then three touch and goes in a Debonair.

killbilly · May 7th, 2008, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurus

If he has the money to buy it, build time and then sell it it could be a very good investment considering he wont need to pay for instruction, and overhaul, or annual by following what I said. A 152 isn't exactly a fuel guzzler at its mighty 4 gal/hr so I would think it would be a good cost efficient way to build time.

I'm not being sarcastic or a smartarse at all when I ask how one is getting a 4-gph fuel burn on a 152. The one I just did my training in would burn 5.3-5.6 if I leaned it out and ran it around 2400-2450 rpm at 3,000msl if I was careful.

Last time I flew it, I was burning about 6.0-6.1 and trying to figure out why....

Wittmandriver · May 7th, 2008, 09:39

A 152 isn't the only trainer out there that is fairly inexpensive. I have seen some Grumman Yankees that are IFR certified. They can be a little more economical if all AD's are complied with.

To make this cost effective, get in good with a good A&P. When you find a plane, have that A&P do a pre-purchase inspection. If you find the A&P that has worked on that particular plane...bonus! Annuals are way cheaper that way because the mechanic knows the plane. In California, tie-downs I have seen go $30-$70 a month. Hangars are much more. This is all depending on location.

Here is how I figure the cost of my plane. I am my own mechanic (homebuilt and I am an A&P) so I don't pay labor which makes it affordable. I have no AD's, but I do comply with engine/accessory AD's voluntarily. Insurance is $1100 a year. Fuel I figure $5 a gallon-it'll be there soon if it isn't already. Oil is $3.86 a qt here. Filters are $17. Oil changes are every 50 hours. Plugs are $15 a piece-you will have 8 that will be changed around 400 hours depending on type. My hangar is $42 a month here in Iowa, but that is about to change when I move to CA. Maintenance down the road goes something like this-a complete overhaul I figure $15k. A cylinder jug is around $950 outright. You can look at any part in Trade-A-Plane to figure out your cost down the road. Then you have to factor in labor...

Buying a plane, in my opinion, for training is not an overly cost effective option, unless you know what you are doing. Do not use it to train someone else, because then you become an FBO/flying club and insurance becomes a factor, or don't get caught. I say don't risk it. I had a flight instructor once that wanted to buy a Cub and teach tailwheel-until that insurance quote got back to him-$9k a year.

Beware of anything over 1000SMOH. You do not know how that plane has been run. I have seen jugs have to be replaced by then. A good A&P will be able to help you out, though.

Good luck,

Wittmandriver