ATP Written expiration dates and working at a 121 carrier

[E_Dawg]

Say you take your ATP written a few months prior to your hire date at a 121 carrier. Does the test expire?

[turbomax97]

No - not as long as you remain employed with that 121 carrier. If there is a break to another carrier for employement - expires immediatly.

[Doug Taylor]

Correcto.

[RightSeatGirl]

And you shouldn't bother taking it until you know upgrade is imminent or you are trying to work for a carrier that requires it to be done. Otherwise you may have to go through all the rigamoral of studying for the silly thing again.

It's such a pointless test and a pointless rating...I wish the FAA would do away with it altogether.

[BobDDuck]

It's actually in our contract that you must take it within 1 year of getting hired here. I'd think most people wait until they are about to upgrade though.

The test itself is a complete waste of time. Now I know ALL about floor strength in a DC9.

[E_Dawg]

Well I took it since some of the tech questions in the interview were ATP knowledge so I figured might as well just take it. That, and when I was hired here upgrade was about two days.

Anyway, good to know it doesn't expire even if you took it before starting at a 121 airline.

[RightSeatGirl]

And if someone can tell me why knowing how to calculate Time, Fuel, and distance to climb in a 727 is going to save my life in a Dash...I'll buy you beers!

And don't even get me started on all that NDB approach stuff...Hell PETHS isn't even online anymore for cryin out loud....

[kellwolf]

Here's how it worked for me. I took it in 11/05, hired at PCL in 3/06. ATP written is a requirement for the job, but at the time I didn't even have an app in at PCL. You needed 1000/100 just to even get a glance from anyone at that time, and I figured the ATP written might be a way to distance myself from the crowd.

Anyway, show up in ground school on 4/08, and it's expired. Ground school instructor whips out a rubber stamp, puts an endorsement on the back, and signs it. Viola. It's now good to go for my checkride.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

And don't even get me started on all that NDB approach stuff...Hell PETHS isn't even online anymore for cryin out loud....

Why am I blanking on PETHS? I was thinking LGA, but that is DIALS, and I don't think that is around any more either.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Why am I blanking on PETHS? I was thinking LGA, but that is DIALS, and I don't think that is around any more either.

Well, the NDB 9 into MEM was gone shortly before I got hired one here. The examiners love to use the VOR/DME 18R with it's insane amount of step downs. We thought about having a party when the FAA nixed that approach, too. Now we get the joy of doing a GPS, ILS and LOC on checkrides instead.

[RightSeatGirl]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Why am I blanking on PETHS? I was thinking LGA, but that is DIALS, and I don't think that is around any more either.

PETHS was the NDB that was next to the white tanks and serves as the LOM for the ILS 4, but I don't think it's transmitting at all any more. DIALS is the radar fix that more or less replaced it. And it's still the FAF for the Expressway Vis 31 for LGA.

[BobDDuck]

Nice. I was actually in the ballpark.

[Seggy]

Peths=dials=the Tanks

[RightSeatGirl]

Quite possibly the funnest visual approach into any major airport...

[chrisdahut1]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

No - not as long as you remain employed with that 121 carrier. If there is a break to another carrier for employement - expires immediatly.

Incorrect on both counts!

The test DOES expire. However, if you complete a 121 air carrier's approved upgrade training course, you may submit the expired test results as if they were current. Refer to 61.39(7)(b). The reg states:

"...Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved—

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought..."

61.39 doesn't care who you were employed by before you took the test, or whether or not you switched employer between the test's expiration and taking the practical test.

I have no idea where people get this idea that if you switch employment between carriers after the expiration, the ATP written suddenly becomes worthless....if there is some FAA legal counsel opinion I am not aware of that says otherwise, I'd like to know.

So the bottom line:

-If you have taken, and passed, an ATP knowledge test, it's technically valid forever so long as the ATP practical test is taken after completing an air carrier's approved PIC training course. Any air carrier, any time...you could have taken the test 30 years ago and switched jobs 10 times since...it doesn't matter. Anyone upgrading or getting employed as a street captain by any carrier does not need to worry about the expiration date...that piece of paper will be accepted by the FAA.

-However, if you take your ATP practical test under part 61 (for example- with a DPE in a PA-44 at the local GA airport after getting 3 hours of instruction from a CFI from ATP), then the expriation date applies, and you must have taken and passed the knowledge test within the preceding 2 years.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

Quite possibly the funnest visual approach into any major airport...

I'm actually more partial to 19 at DCA. Either way, the view out the left side is much more interesting then the view out the right during both approaches so I am looking forward to that.

I've also gotten very lazy about the Expressway Visual. If you load it right into the FMS you have vertical guidance the whole way down, which is almost like cheating.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

And don't even get me started on all that NDB approach stuff...

How else are you going to get into Dutch Harbor? GPS-C? Or the Venerable NDB/DME-C? YEAHHHHHHHH Request Direct to the 15DME Fix off of the 346 Degree bearing from the Dutch Harbor Radio Beacon.

[adreamer]

I like expressway visual 31 into LGA. However, love the runway 22 visual approach into DCA. Fun stuff.

[Ophir]

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

Well I took it since some of the tech questions in the interview were ATP knowledge so I figured might as well just take it. That, and when I was hired here upgrade was about two days.

Anyway, good to know it doesn't expire even if you took it before starting at a 121 airline.

Ed, you outta think about putting in an upgrade on the Bro. I am so psyched i did. It's gonna be fun. Just finished the oral last night, checkride tomorrow and type ride on Sunday. FUN!

[turbomax97]

Originally Posted by chrisdahut1

Incorrect on both counts!

The test DOES expire. However, if you complete a 121 air carrier's approved upgrade training course, you may submit the expired test results as if they were current. Refer to 61.39(7)(b). The reg states:

"...Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved—

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought..."

61.39 doesn't care who you were employed by before you took the test, or whether or not you switched employer between the test's expiration and taking the practical test.

I have no idea where people get this idea that if you switch employment between carriers after the expiration, the ATP written suddenly becomes worthless....if there is some FAA legal counsel opinion I am not aware of that says otherwise, I'd like to know.

So the bottom line:

-If you have taken, and passed, an ATP knowledge test, it's technically valid forever so long as the ATP practical test is taken after completing an air carrier's approved PIC training course. Any air carrier, any time...you could have taken the test 30 years ago and switched jobs 10 times since...it doesn't matter. Anyone upgrading or getting employed as a street captain by any carrier does not need to worry about the expiration date...that piece of paper will be accepted by the FAA.

-However, if you take your ATP practical test under part 61 (for example- with a DPE in a PA-44 at the local GA airport after getting 3 hours of instruction from a CFI from ATP), then the expriation date applies, and you must have taken and passed the knowledge test within the preceding 2 years.

Interesting. One more thing though - I don't know if the DE/ FAA is screwing up or what, but the last 4 DE's I've sent students to were fine with the expired written as long as they were currently employed with a part 121 company. That's where I got the idea from. If that many DE's are incorrecto - sounds like there needs to be some more clarification.