Question for airline pilots

[Omdahl]

I was hoping to get some thoughts from airline pilots. I am a controller and lately I have been getting a lot of airline pilots asking "are we cleared to land?" after having previously cleared them to land. One airline in particular is terrible with this and even has asked me 30 seconds after I cleared them! I can understand if they get switched to tower early and it's been a few minutes and they "forgot", but come on 30 seconds! I especially hate it when asked when on a mile final cause I immediately scan the runway thinking there is someone or something on it. Is there something on the checklist that has this twice were they are just double checking or anything?

[KLB]

I verify landing clearances all the time. It's just to make sure I heard what I thought I heard especially when there's a heavy workload and there are multiple runways in use. I also verify that clearances that are to cross an active runway....especially when that clearance is given even before I begin to taxi. I'm just protecting myself.

[taz]

It's all about "CYA"... many times when we head back to LAX and other major busy airports, we're only given 3 miles separation, on top of traffic crossing and taking off on the same or intercepting runways, it's just a confirmation so we don't get into trouble. Last thing we want is you guys giving us a phone number to call after we landed.

[RightSeatGirl]

As pilots when it comes to any kind of clearance we are taught "when in doubt, ask." Things on short final can be busy. Would you rather us not confirm a landing clearance and just throw it on the numbers if we are unsure?

I know that sometimes as pilot flying you can miss a radio call very easily if you are in a very busy phase of flight and if you ask the pilot monitoring to verify a clearance to land..the PM will sometimes question it was ever received so they call up the controller for a verification.

[Omdahl]

ok, so it is more of a confirmation then something that must be double checked on a checklist or something. It just gets a little old having to clear a plane to land twice all day long....haha.

[granlistillo]

there is an old saying... Aviate Navigate and communicate. Sometimes there are other things going on.

If I am not 100% sure i ask the captain. If got the radios, and I am sure we are clear to land, i tell the pilot flying after before landing checks "we are cleared to land". If there is any doubt we will ask you, our backsides (literally) and our certificates.

[germb747]

One technique I use is to turn on all the lights except for the taxi light, and then when cleared to land I turn on the taxi light. That way, when I do a final configuration check, that's my double check to ensure I've been cleared to land. Occasionally, I'll have to confim with ATC. It's not on the checklist or anything, but the workload is huge during that phase of flight. I have checklists to run, callouts to make, configure the airplane, ensure we're flying the correct speeds, etc. Talking on the radio is our last priority. Yea, we should remember what was said to us, but it's easy to get distracted in favor of other cockpit duties. At one time, ATC used to be able to ride jumpseats to to familiarize themselves with the environment we're operating in. Is that option still available to you guys? If so, try taking a couple of rides--it'll be a real eye-opener. I've made it a point to visit ATC facilities to appreciate what you guys have to put up with.

[pilatus028]

Originally Posted by Omdahl

I was hoping to get some thoughts from airline pilots. I am a controller and lately I have been getting a lot of airline pilots asking "are we cleared to land?" after having previously cleared them to land. One airline in particular is terrible with this and even has asked me 30 seconds after I cleared them! I can understand if they get switched to tower early and it's been a few minutes and they "forgot", but come on 30 seconds! I especially hate it when asked when on a mile final cause I immediately scan the runway thinking there is someone or something on it. Is there something on the checklist that has this twice were they are just double checking or anything?

I double check because I don't trust you. I don't trust myself either, so I double check for that too ;-).

[sopdan]

We turn on the wing lights when cleared for the approach, and the taxi light when cleared to land. Sometimes you forget to flip the switch, and when you check them on the Final Flow* and find the taxi light off, you may question whether you were ever cleared. It's CYA, but also a safety thing.

*I meant final flow, not checklist, before another XJ guy corrects me

[Omdahl]

Originally Posted by germb747

It's not on the checklist or anything, but the workload is huge during that phase of flight. I have checklists to run, callouts to make, configure the airplane, ensure we're flying the correct speeds, etc. Talking on the radio is our last priority. Yea, we should remember what was said to us, but it's easy to get distracted in favor of other cockpit duties. At one time, ATC used to be able to ride jumpseats to to familiarize themselves with the environment we're operating in. Is that option still available to you guys? If so, try taking a couple of rides--it'll be a real eye-opener. I've made it a point to visit ATC facilities to appreciate what you guys have to put up with.

They no longer offer the FAM trips, but I have rode jumpseat once a long long time ago in the big Saab 340! I understand it is a critical phase of flight. I like some of the light techniques that people have.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by sopdan

We turn on the wing lights when cleared for the approach, and the taxi light when cleared to land. Sometimes you forget to flip the switch, and when you check them on the Final Checklist and find the taxi light off, you may question whether you were ever cleared. It's CYA, but also a safety thing.

Nice. I like that.
Got the order to switch to tower the other night, pushed the flipflop...only upon landing did I realize I never checked in. I called the tower and he was like...Oh, uh, taxi to the ramp this frequency...

[meritflyer]

Work load, work load, work load. GA, 121, instructing, 135, 91, small plane, fast plane, prop, or jet it all comes down to what I am doing just prior to the approach. Sometimes ATC changes runways on you, sometimes you're scanning for the traffic, maybe it's a scenario where approach told you to keep a certain speed to the OM and it's now become a challenge to slow the aircraft, configure at the appropriate speeds, and work the radios let alone remember what ATC has told you. In the jet, I'd punch in CL in the scratch pad of the FMS, in GA flying I'll turn my taxi light on.

[PatrickCPS]

When in doubt of anything that requires a clearance, we are taught to ask. I'd much rather annoy you by asking twice if cleared to land than to land thinking I was cleared and have you tell me to call the tower on the landline once I'm back at the ramp.

[calcapt]

Quite often clearances to land will be given with wind reports, following traffic by XXX miles and in monotone voices that are devoid of any inflection. Even after hearing what I thought was a clearance to land, I occasionally will find myself wondering if I heard what I think I heard. Once the doubt has been established, a confirmation request will surely follow. The most effective landing clearances place a lot of emphasis on the words "CLEARED TO LAND." For example: Continental 123, wind is 230/22, following a 757 on a 5 mile final - RUNWAY 27 - CLEARED TO LAND.

Anything a controller can do to emphasize the actual clearance will drastically reduce those pesky read backs you dislike.

[ERfly]

Originally Posted by calcapt

The most effective landing clearances place a lot of emphasis on the words "CLEARED TO LAND." For example: Continental 123, wind is 230/22, following a 757 on a 5 mile final - RUNWAY 27 - CLEARED TO LAND.

Anything a controller can do to emphasize the actual clearance will drastically reduce those pesky read backs you dislike.

Happy Richard used to do that in IAH. I miss that guy.

[JaceTheAce]

As the PM (Pilot Monitoring...who works the radios) we turn on the approach lights when descending through 10,000 feet, then the flare lights when getting cleared for the approach, then the taxi lights after we're cleared to land. This is usually a reminder to me that we've been cleared to land. It's sort of a "checkbox" that we've been cleared. This is what I use. Only once I've asked to verify getting cleared to land when I thought maybe the Captain sneaked in and flipped the switch without me knowing. I'm sure there will be many other times that I will ask you again if we're cleared! We don't want to get violated by the FAA... I think that is the main reason why you have this problem. We want to protect ourselves from the big bad FAA!

[Omdahl]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

We want to protect ourselves from the big bad FAA!

I fully understand that part. We feel the same way! It's all about CYA.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by ERfly

Happy Richard used to do that in IAH. I miss that guy.

Me too. I would of liked to meet him in person.

[SoCalAprch]

Landing lights at 18K
Nose landing light at cleared for approach
Taxi light when cleared to land

I just ask for confirmation to annoy you guys

[crashmbern]

"Wind Check"

[SmitteyB]

Originally Posted by Omdahl

They no longer offer the FAM trips, but I have rode jumpseat once a long long time ago in the big Saab 340! I understand it is a critical phase of flight. I like some of the light techniques that people have.

SAAB NATION

Honestly...our heart drops when you give us a number to call. Bear with us, it's only to cover our tails.

Pet Peeve...Wind below 20 knots- and people call for a Wind Check. Why?? Any 121 airliner should have NO PROBLEM landing with anything less than 20-30 knots.

[BenWlson]

I've got a question regarding landing clearances. Back when I was doing my initial private training in '97, we were usually never cleared to land until the runway was empty and there was nobody in front of us. Now-a-days, I routinely get cleared to land when I'm #3 or #4 in the pattern. Other airplanes are given takeoff or crossing clearances after I've been cleared to land. It's never been a problem. The controllers all do a good job of keeping us separated, but it just seems to me like the whole meaning of a landing clearance has changed since when I first started flying.

(I realize there wasn't actually a question in there...)

[Omdahl]

This is the current rule we follow with landing clearances:

3−10−6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing
sequence need not be withheld if you observe the
positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed
runway separation will exist when the aircraft cross
the landing threshold. Issue traffic information to the
succeeding aircraft if not previously reported and
appropriate traffic holding in position or departing
prior to their arrival.

[UPSpilot]

"Wind Check"

[UPSpilot]

Originally Posted by Omdahl

I was hoping to get some thoughts from airline pilots. I am a controller and lately I have been getting a lot of airline pilots asking "are we cleared to land?" after having previously cleared them to land. One airline in particular is terrible with this and even has asked me 30 seconds after I cleared them! I can understand if they get switched to tower early and it's been a few minutes and they "forgot", but come on 30 seconds! I especially hate it when asked when on a mile final cause I immediately scan the runway thinking there is someone or something on it. Is there something on the checklist that has this twice were they are just double checking or anything?

Shouldn't it be..... "Dude.... Are we like cleared to land?"