Boeing 717-Airtran

[troopernflight]

I flew with Airtran rountrip Charlotte to Dallas and had the opportunity to ride in the Boeing 717. Strange, I had never heard of this aircraft before I had my tickets. I seems to resemble the DC9, maybe a little bigger (I might be wrong). Anyway, my question is if anyone in here flys this aircraft. It seemed that every landing was extra "firm". I don't know if that is just how this plane lands or if the conditions just happened to dictate planting it on the runway. Other than that, it seemed to be a smooth flying machine. BTW, the experience with Airtran was a good one, and I hope the airline can hang in there with the recent turmoil.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by troopernflight

I flew with Airtran rountrip Charlotte to Dallas and had the opportunity to ride in the Boeing 717. Strange, I had never heard of this aircraft before I had my tickets. I seems to resemble the DC9, maybe a little bigger (I might be wrong). Anyway, my question is if anyone in here flys this aircraft. It seemed that every landing was extra "firm". I don't know if that is just how this plane lands or if the conditions just happened to dictate planting it on the runway. Other than that, it seemed to be a smooth flying machine. BTW, the experience with Airtran was a good one, and I hope the airline can hang in there with the recent turmoil.

B-717 was simply a MD-95 pre Boeing merger!

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

B-717 was simply a MD-95 pre Boeing merger!

[charlie1017]

That was PCL having some fun in the 717.

[Capt. Caucasian]

I used to fly it when I was at AT. Basically, it is part of the DC-9, MD-80, 82, 83, 88, and 90 family, but with Rolls Royce engines. The avionics are the same as what is in the MD-11. And yes, it likes to land rather firm. Not to say smooth landings are not impossible but, they are more difficult. Part of the problem lies with AT's policy to leave the auto-throttles on through landing. The planes hand-flies much better if the throttles are disengaged.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

Part of the problem lies with AT's policy to leave the auto-throttles on through landing. The planes hand-flies much better if the throttles are disengaged.

So, just disengage the auto-throttles on landing. Who's gonna know, right?

[charlie1017]

Originally Posted by coa787

So, just disengage the auto-throttles on landing. Who's gonna know, right?

I guess they teach the procedure to the pilots at indoc, so they have to follow the company guidelines...

[the_dmn8tr]

Originally Posted by coa787

Who's gonna know, right?

That is a bad attitude to have in the aviation world...

Anyway, I have flown the 717 between MCI and SEA on YX a couple times and they seem like a fun plane to fun on. My only complaint is that the air conditioning system is pretty loud after engine start and taxi out, but that just might be Midwest policy.

[madmax]

For some reason I always think of the 717 as the CRJ-1500...

[charlie1017]

Originally Posted by the_dmn8tr

That is a bad attitude to have in the aviation world...

I bet COA didn't mean it in a bad way (check his profile). However, I agree with you that honesty and integrity in aviation is essential.

[troopernflight]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

I used to fly it when I was at AT. Basically, it is part of the DC-9, MD-80, 82, 83, 88, and 90 family, but with Rolls Royce engines. The avionics are the same as what is in the MD-11. And yes, it likes to land rather firm. Not to say smooth landings are not impossible but, they are more difficult. Part of the problem lies with AT's policy to leave the auto-throttles on through landing. The planes hand-flies much better if the throttles are disengaged.

Ok, that does make sense because I did notice that the autothrottles were engaged on both landings (it was pretty obvious because of the way the engines sounded). Do they still hand fly the approach with the A/T armed, or does the AP have to be engaged when using them? What do the pilots do, disengage the A/T just before touchdown?

[bLizZuE]

Nobody lets you get away with sarcasm without

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by troopernflight

Ok, that does make sense because I did notice that the autothrottles were engaged on both landings (it was pretty obvious because of the way the engines sounded). Do they still hand fly the approach with the A/T armed, or does the AP have to be engaged when using them? What do the pilots do, disengage the A/T just before touchdown?

It would be pretty difficult to determine if the autothottles are engaged just by the sound of the engines.

[NW004]

Beautiful Aircraft, one of my favorite actually. The sound of the engines make me feel in heaven. Its a world wonder to my ears. lol

Its funny because I'm going to be flying on one in 3 hours from MKE-ATL on FL.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by troopernflight

I flew with Airtran rountrip Charlotte to Dallas and had the opportunity to ride in the Boeing 717. Strange, I had never heard of this aircraft before I had my tickets. I seems to resemble the DC9, maybe a little bigger (I might be wrong).

It's basically the same airframe as a DC-9-30. In other words, a mid-size DC-9. Many of the systems are still exactly the same as the -9, including the old-fashioned cable-and-pulley flight controls. I love it. The cockpit is a complete re-do with the MD-11 cockpit, as Caucasian pointed out. Extremely automated and makes life very easy.

It seemed that every landing was extra "firm". I don't know if that is just how this plane lands or if the conditions just happened to dictate planting it on the runway.

The airplane is a tough one to land smoothly on a consistent basis. You get the occasional greaser after you get used to it, but you still plow one on sometimes. Some of our Captains have been flying DC-9 variants for 30 years and still slam the occasional landing. It's just not very forgiving on landings. Other than that, it's about the smoothest flying airplane in the sky.

BTW, the experience with Airtran was a good one, and I hope the airline can hang in there with the recent turmoil.

Thanks. Hope you come back.

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

Part of the problem lies with AT's policy to leave the auto-throttles on through landing. The planes hand-flies much better if the throttles are disengaged.

I hardly ever land with the ATs engaged. They come off usually around 10,000 ft. They're more of a pain than they're worth in the terminal area, and you still have low-speed protection even if they're off.

Originally Posted by charlie1017

I guess they teach the procedure to the pilots at indoc, so they have to follow the company guidelines...

There's nothing in the book to require it. Some Captains don't like them to be turned off, but that's not an official policy in any manual.

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

It would be pretty difficult to determine if the autothottles are engaged just by the sound of the engines.

Not on this plane. The things move around constantly if there's even a hint of wind, so you'll hear them move from idle to 70% and back again if they're engaged. That's why they can screw up landings so much. You'll be at 50 ft, about to flare, and the ATs will surge up to 70%, then go back to idle at the 30 ft mark. Completely screws up the landing and you'll float half way down the runway if you don't plop it on.

[troopernflight]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Not on this plane. The things move around constantly if there's even a hint of wind, so you'll hear them move from idle to 70% and back again if they're engaged. That's why they can screw up landings so much. You'll be at 50 ft, about to flare, and the ATs will surge up to 70%, then go back to idle at the 30 ft mark. Completely screws up the landing and you'll float half way down the runway if you don't plop it on.

That's exactly what it felt like, it was like the engines would be at idle and then surge. I knew it was not likely that the pilots would handle the throttles like that. And it was gusty on both landings.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by troopernflight

That's exactly what it felt like, it was like the engines would be at idle and then surge. I knew it was not likely that the pilots would handle the throttles like that. And it was gusty on both landings.

You'd be surprised, that's exactly how you have to fly the EMB-145 sometimes. You can really end up tromboning the thing on approach if it's gusty.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

You'd be surprised, that's exactly how you have to fly the EMB-145 sometimes. You can really end up tromboning the thing on approach if it's gusty.

I think you underestimate what he's talking about. The ATs don'ts just pull back to 40%, they come all the way back to dead idle. I certainly hope jungle-jet pilots aren't doing that very often. Very risky on approach in strong winds. Always keep the engines spooled at least a little bit, otherwise the fecal matter can hit the fan in short order.

[Capt. Caucasian]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

I think you underestimate what he's talking about. The ATs don'ts just pull back to 40%, they come all the way back to dead idle. I certainly hope jungle-jet pilots aren't doing that very often. Very risky on approach in strong winds. Always keep the engines spooled at least a little bit, otherwise the fecal matter can hit the fan in short order.

There is one point on final where you have to bring the throttles back to idle almost every time on the E145. That is on the GS in between flaps 22 and 45. And yes, the 717's autothrottles are jerkyer (is that word?) than what you have to do on the 145. On the 75/76 you pretty much plant the throttles in one place and let it ride. Speed brakes are used a whole lot more though.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

There is one point on final where you have to bring the throttles back to idle almost every time on the E145. That is on the GS in between flaps 22 and 45.

Well, that makes sense. I'll bring the 717 throttles back to idle when configuring also, but once stable and configured by 1000 ft, they ain't going below about 45% N1. The ATs will pull back to idle at 100 ft if you hit a wind gust.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

On the 75/76 you pretty much plant the throttles in one place and let it ride. Speed brakes are used a whole lot more though.

Yeah...and that one place is idle! "Come on baby..slow down..slow down..."

It is pretty stable on final once you get the thing on speed... 1.05 EPR on the 757 and around 5000 lbs/hr per side on the 767..just tweak it a bit unless its really gusty.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by the_dmn8tr

That is a bad attitude to have in the aviation world...

Maybe I should have used the tag? I never meant it in a bad way.

[grnclvrs]

We hired some analyst guy from Boeing that is tweaking our procedures. He wanted us to switch to flaps 28 from flaps 40 landings and leave the A/T engaged for landing. The flaps 28 are not bad, just harder to slow to final approach speed. With the A/T engaged, they retard to idle at 50 ft and the landing feels like . The airplane does not like to get slow, even in the flare. 2-3 kts makes the difference between a greaser and piling it in.