Upgrade Time

[faceof5]

What exactly does it mean? Is it the time to upgrade just one year from a first year FO pay rate to a second year FO pay rate? Or is it the time to gor from a FO to CA? Or is it the time to go from turbo prop to turbine? And is that CA turbo to FO turbine or even FO turbo to FO trubine? Sorry, I'm obviously a rookie and clueless. And how do you find info on a company's upgrade time?

Thanks a lot!

[surreal1221]

It means the time it takes from new hire FO to Captain upgrade.

[SIUAv8r]

Upgrade time is the time it take for an F/O to, for lack of better term, upgrade, to Captain. Though I'm sure some people may argue, that going from first year F/O pay to second year F/O pay is an upgrade...in Quality of life.

[kellwolf]

Upgrade is going from FO to CA. Going to another airframe (like say going from the Brasilia to the CRJ at Skywest) is called "transition training."

Like Surreal said, when we talk about it on here, it's generally how long it takes for an FO to become a CA. Be careful, though. It's a floating number that changes ALL the time.

[faceof5]

And that goes for upgrade to the aircraft you were assigned to as an FO? Is it possible to upgrade from an FO on one type of plane to CA on a different aircraft?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by faceof5

And that goes for upgrade to the aircraft you were assigned to as an FO? Is it possible to upgrade from an FO on one type of plane to CA on a different aircraft?

Happens all the time, but not much at the regional level since it's mostly the same airframe. I could see someone at, say, jetBlue upgrading as an FO on the Airbus to CA on the E-190. Most of the time, seat locks come into play.

Our own Doug Taylor could easily go from 767ER FO to MD-88 CA if he wanted to take a hit in the QoL department.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by faceof5

And that goes for upgrade to the aircraft you were assigned to as an FO? Is it possible to upgrade from an FO on one type of plane to CA on a different aircraft?

Yes.

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by faceof5

And that goes for upgrade to the aircraft you were assigned to as an FO? Is it possible to upgrade from an FO on one type of plane to CA on a different aircraft?

Yep...happens at Republic from the 145 to the 175 and possibly Skywest as well...

[faceof5]

So how do you upgrade then? Do you apply while you're an FO? or does it just automatically happen once there is room and your slot comes up? They send you to more training? Sorry again for the dumb ques.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by faceof5

So how do you upgrade then? Do you apply while you're an FO? or does it just automatically happen once there is room and your slot comes up? They send you to more training? Sorry again for the dumb ques.

We all had to learn at some point.... no need to apologize.....

[surreal1221]

You place a bid, and if your seniority can hold it (at least at most companies. . .not at the merit based promotion operators). . .you get it.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by faceof5

So how do you upgrade then? Do you apply while you're an FO? or does it just automatically happen once there is room and your slot comes up? They send you to more training? Sorry again for the dumb ques.

Not a dumb question at all. Honest answer is, it may even vary from company to company. Here's how it works at Pinnacle:

Get hired, and put in the bid for the base you want as an FO. IF you've got the required time to upgrade (we have specific total time, multi-engine and turbine requirements), you can put in a bid for CA and one of the four bases as well. So it looks sorta like this:

MEM CA
ATL CA
DTW CA
MSP CA
MEM FO
DTW FO
MSP FO
ATL FO

That's how my bid preference looked a couple of months ago when I hit the minimums to upgrade. When a new "vacancy" opens up, they'll post how many open CA and FO slots they have in each base. So, if I was currently a MEM FO, the system would look and see what my seniority would hold. If I could hold my first choice (MEM CA) I get that. If not, it goes to my next choice, and so on until it gets to where I already am and stops. If you've got the seniority to hold a CA slot, then you get sent to upgrade training (about 4-6 weeks of training) then start flying as a CA in the base where your seniority held. If, for example, you got your number 2 choice, when another vacancy comes out, the whole thing starts over. If you can hold your #1 choice this time, it'll move you to that base.

Confused yet?

[msmspilot]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

You place a bid, and if your seniority can hold it (at least at most companies. . .not at the merit based promotion operators). . .you get it.

There are merit based upgrades in aviation? where?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by msmspilot

There are merit based upgrades in aviation? where?

I THINK Virgin America might be taking this route, but I'm not 100% sure. I know Cathay Pacific doesn't use seniority as a means of upgrading.

Generally merit based upgrades are bad juju since you run the risk of management-oriented pilots cutting safety corners to appease bean counters and upper management to make sure flights get out on time or even go.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by msmspilot

There are merit based upgrades in aviation? where?

Colgan. Once you can hold it, you have to interview with the company before going to upgrade.

[msmspilot]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I THINK Virgin America might be taking this route, but I'm not 100% sure. I know Cathay Pacific doesn't use seniority as a means of upgrading.

Generally merit based upgrades are bad juju since you run the risk of management-oriented pilots cutting safety corners to appease bean counters and upper management to make sure flights get out on time or even go.

I didn't think they would end up being a good thing (I have learned that most stuff has a reason for why it is done a certain way), but I really didn't know anyone used something other than seniority.

[typhoonpilot]

A few other points in regards to upgrade time.

Number 1 is that when a prospective employer tells you that upgrades are happening at three years, that only applies to somebody hired three years ago. It is no guarantee that it will happen for you. Case in point, when I interviewed at USAir the upgrade time was said to be 5 years. One older guy questioned the statement, he was not hired. I kept my mouth shut, but did the math myself and figured there was no way it could be less than 10 years for our group. So, do the math yourself based on growth and attrition to figure when you will be halfway up the seniority list. That will be your upgrade time.


The other point is in regards to seniority versus meit based upgrades. Seniority is okay and I generally agree, but in union airlines some very marginal people are allowed to be captains just because their seniority has gotten them to that level. Competence, performance, and character aren't always checked well enough and there are some awefully poor captains flying around as a result.

Case in point, the Pinnacle CRJ Captain that crashed his jet while "having fun". He had the seniority to be a captain, but he didn't have the maturity to be one.



Typhoonpilot

[germb747]

Originally Posted by msmspilot

There are merit based upgrades in aviation? where?

Having the necessary seniority only provides an OPPORTUNITY to upgrade. You still won't upgrade if you're not deemed ready. Our company has a 40-50% more or less washout rate on the captain upgrade course--it's tough.