Background check question

[BigPoppa]

I read every thread that showed up in a search on background checks, and this particular issue was never brought up.


Short Version:
I have two felony arrests (both for theft, both over 15 years ago) on my record. In both cases, the charges were thrown out without a trial (not plea-bargained, dropped altogether). They have been expunged, but apparently still show up on a government background check (this kept me from getting a substitute teaching gig years ago).

Will this keep me from getting a pilot's license?
If I get a license, will this preclude me from getting a job?



Long version:
Until recently, it was possible for anyone to get anyone else arrested in my hometown of Nashville TN. All you had to do was go down to the courthouse and swear out a warrant for their arrest. They required no corroboration, nor evidence. They would get a warrant and the police would come pick you up. As you can guess, this was greatly abused. People were constantly getting each arrested out of spite (which is why you can't do this anymore). They would just drop the charges if there was no basis for them (which there normally wasn't). So a lot of people ended up with an arrest on their record for no reason at all.
This happened to me twice: once in a civil dispute, where the charges were thrown out before trial when the DA realized they were BS; once in retaliation for someone else's arrest, when the charges were dropped for failure to prosecute (person who swore out the warrant never appeared in court).
I've gotten both these arrests expunged from the public record, but they're still in the FBI computers. Years after the fact, I tried to be a substitute teacher. These arrests showed up on the background check and kept me from getting the job. My appeals and explanations were considered irrelevant. This derailed my plans for being a schoolteacher (never finished my student teaching).
I really don't want to set my heart on a flying career and have it broken again. Nor do I want to spend a ton of money training again for something I can't be hired to do.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Instead of asking "some guys on the Internet," sit down with an aviation career consultant and/or a kowledgeable lawyer to be sure in your specific situation. Typically, it's convictions (and in some cases court dispositions that smell like convictions), not arrests, that are triggers. I'm frankly very surprised that your plans for teaching were derailed by arrests that did not result in convictions, or deferred dispositions of some type, for anything.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Instead of asking "some guys on the Internet," sit down with an aviation career consultant and/or a kowledgeable lawyer to be sure in your specific situation. Typically, it's convictions (and in some cases court dispositions that smell like convictions), not arrests, that are triggers. I'm frankly very surprised that your plans for teaching were derailed by arrests that did not result in convictions, or deferred dispositions of some type, for anything.

Arrests without conviction won't cause problems with getting your licenses and should not be used by an employer to decide not to hire you. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it's in the realm of questionable legality for an employer to do so.

But Midlife's advice is good -- sit down with an aviation career consultant or knowledgable lawyer regarding your specific situation.

[UPSpilot]

Unfortunately, your timing could not be worse. With the increasing amounts of already "qualified" pilots on the street, the chances of an airline's HR department taking a "chance" on hiring someone with FELONY arrests is highly doubtful. I know that you said that you were never convicted, but HR is all about minimizing risk and quite frankly, you present a huge potential risk to an airline in bad PR should anything happen while you are at work. The press would find out that an incident/accident occurred and one of the pilots has a history of multiple arrests and they would have a field day with you in the media. There are now equally, if not more qualified applicants that are much more "safer" than hiring someone with a record of multiple arrests.

I would pursue a different career. I wouldn't want someone working with me with a history of theft. You obviously have made poor choices in the past and hopefully you have changed. The problem for you is that you are a risk to the airlines and with the large number of pilots now looking for work, why should they hire YOU?

[BigPoppa]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

I wouldn't want someone working with me with a history of theft. You obviously have made poor choices in the past and hopefully you have changed.

You probably should've read the long version before making these comments. I don't, in fact, have a history of theft; and any poor choices I've made in the past are unrelated to the criminal justice system.


To the others:
How would I find an "aviation career consultant" to talk to and do you have any idea how much it would cost?

[as an aside, I might've been able to be a teacher in another area (I'm pretty sure some states don't disqualify based solely on arrests with no convictions); but as I could not relocate at the time the choice was made for me]



edit: I googled "aviation career consultant" with my city name and got the first reply in this thread as the only hit.

[tpaRob]

This looks pretty close:
http://avconsult.com/acscouns.htm

[RightSeatGirl]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

I would pursue a different career. I wouldn't want someone working with me with a history of theft. You obviously have made poor choices in the past and hopefully you have changed. The problem for you is that you are a risk to the airlines and with the large number of pilots now looking for work, why should they hire YOU?

What a completely asinine and insensitive thing to say. This kind of nonsense is what makes me very very sad when thinking about the present "American" condition. Did you even read the guys whole post, or just the first sentence? Bigpoppa was victimized by a flawed aspect of our judicial system through no fault of his own. My best friend went through something similar and believe me Captain Brown Arse! An accusation in MANY jurisdictions is all it takes to ruin someones reputation.

This is an issue all should be aware of. And without going into any more soap boxed rhetoric, it's the fleecing of the constitution happening right in front of our eyes.

Now, Bigpoppa: Did you disclose the arrest record to the school you applied to?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

An accusation in MANY jurisdictions is all it takes to ruin someones reputation.

Obviously, in UPS's world that's all it takes also.

[I_Money]

You can run your own background check - just google it, it is $35.

I would also just be honest - I work in staffing, and have had multiple people who had something on their record. If they let me know, I could explain the situation to the company, and it has never been a problem.

[tpaRob]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

...and believe me Captain Brown Arse!

I think I'm in love.

[BigPoppa]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

Now, Bigpoppa: Did you disclose the arrest record to the school you applied to?

I'm training at an FBO, and they didn't ask anything beyond proof I was a US citizen. On my medical/student card app, it only asked if I'd been convicted of a felony (think there was also a question about drug or alcohol arrests, but can't remember). I can truthfully state that I've never been convicted of a felony, so I haven't lied to anyone (nor do I plan on doing so).

I could do a check on myself, but not sure what good the information would do me. I already know that the arrests have been expunged but that they still show up in the FBI database.

I was just hoping someone here might know how the FAA handles an arrest that did not lead to a conviction or guilty plea. I'd like to assume that they ignore it, but assuming that very thing in the past didn't work out very well.

I've looked all over the FAA site, but only find a vague mention of an "arrest record", but not sure if they actually mean arrest or only conviction.


Thanks for your suggestions (and thanks, also, for sticking up for me).

[Jayrock]

So, you've only been arrested and that prevented you from landing a teaching position. Something doesn't sound quite right to me.

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest running a FBI criminal history check on yourself. You'll need to get fingerprinted and pay something like $20. In any event it's a good place to start.

Here's the link if you need: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/fprequest.htm

Best of luck to you.

[Jayrock]

To add to my previous post, if the records were expunged then they should not appear on your records. However, records that are sealed or expunged are still visible to law enforcement agencies, military, etc...

[BigPoppa]

Originally Posted by Jayrock

Here's the link if you need: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/fprequest.htm

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for that link

It says that the file should show the disposition (i.e. that the charges were dropped). If it just shows the arrest and no disposition is listed, that might explain my problems with the board of education.

It also says that I can appeal to the submitting agency if the info is not correct. I'm pretty sure that I can't get everyone involved to just erase my file, but showing that the charges were dropped without any sort of plea would be a step in the right direction.

[UPSpilot]

Once again, If you guys don't get the answer that you want, you attack the responder. BigPoppa, go ahead and spend tens of thousands of dollars on flight training. The fact remains that with the now excess supply of already qualified pilots, why should an airline take a chance on hiring you with two felony arrests when they have hundreds if not thousands of applicants with squeaky clean records to choose from?

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by Jayrock

To add to my previous post, if the records were expunged then they should not appear on your records. However, records that are sealed or expunged are still visible to law enforcement agencies, military, etc...

What "expungement" gets you varies widely from state-to-state, but it does not mean that it's not on your record; it does not mean that someone can't find it.

[RightSeatGirl]

Bigpoppa...Here's how it works....An FBI background check will show all contact you have had with law enforcement that resulted in your being fingerprinted...i.e. arrests. It may or may not show a case disposition. Most airline applications will ask you if you have ever been "arrested" for a felony vs. "convicted". This is where you have to be careful and honest.

In your situation, as much as I hate to admit the Baby Poo Uniform Color Wearer is pseudo correct...you will be running a risk of undisclosed discriminatory job denial during an "employers" job market in aviation. However...comma...pause for effect.....when the age 65 band aid runs its course, it will once again be an "employees" job market and the next pilot shortage will make this last one look like it never happened. When that comes down around the end of 2012 I'd say as long as all of the other qualifications are met...you shouldn't have an issue.

I know some peeps in the HR dept of my airline and told them about your scenario. They said flat out that if you disclose everything the application requires you to disclose then it would not be a factor.

Now insofar as the FAA goes, if you have no convictions, you can get any certificate you earn. Provided you answer all application questions truthfully and thoroughly. If you do end up applying for an airline I would suggest writing a supplemental explanation of what happened along with a statement from your lawyer backing up your version of events.

Another thing you could and should do is write to the HR departments of the airlines you would like to apply to in the future and ask them about their policy regarding this issue. Or attend a job fair and talk to some recruiters and see what they think before you invest in the training.

But all in all, I really don't think this will be something that will keep you out of aviation. It may keep you out of a DAL, UAL or *ahem* UPS cockpit, but it won't roadblock you from the entirety of the industry.

[BigPoppa]

RSG:
Thank you very much for that info. It was very nice of you to ask someone in HR for me, and even nicer to know that an arrest wouldn't be automatically disqualifying.

I really didn't consider the majors to be a likely destination anyway given my age (just past 40). By the time I worked my way up the ladder, it would be time to get put out to pasture. I was setting my sights on something more like the left seat of one of the better regionals or maybe a steady 135 gig. I'm planning on instructing for a while, but wanted to know that there were other possibilities out there for me once I wanted to move on.


Cheers

[RightSeatGirl]

Something else to consider is that background checks cost any employer money. The more thorough the check, the more money it costs and it goes up exponentially the deeper the investigation. Regional airlines do the minimum required by law. FBI, fingerprint check, NDR, residence and work history verification (past five years actually verified - but applicant must disclose past ten.), FAA records check and that's about it. Some majors will run a credit check in addition to all that as well as actually verifying ten years vs. the required five. These reports are not cheap, they run $50 to $200 per applicant. And if it was up to the airlines they probably wouldn't do it at all. Smaller 135 and part 91 operators probably don't verify much beyond your aviation work and criminal history.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

The fact remains that with the now excess supply of already qualified pilots . . .

by the time you're ready, it could be they're looking for 200 hour wonders again.

No attack for you UPS pilot, and I appreciate you being here along with your perspective. It would have helped had you not jumped to a conclusion not based on facts in evidence

RSG let's not be calling people arses or asses or anything of the like. That does not help the situation either

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by BigPoppa

RSG:
I really didn't consider the majors to be a likely destination anyway given my age (just past 40).

Cheers

Don't count it out either . . . If you work hard, and are lucky you have plenty of time. I started flying at 42, and am a Captain at a regional now at 47. I did have perfect timing

[RightSeatGirl]

I can't help it, that dude has negativity genetically ingrained into every one of his posts, even the one on the thread for underwater basket weaving (if there ever was one, LOL)....It just gets to me when someone new is looking for advice from experienced people and they get slammed like that. The only way to get through to those guys is amplify what they dish out ten times and throw it back at em until they get sick of being attacked and they finally mellow out...or go away. It's kind of like training a dog for an invisible fence. It takes a sting for the lesson to be learned.

And quite honestly, now that you got me going...I have a lot of doubt he flies for UPS. Everyone of those guys I have talked to have been friendly, professional, and very willing to share their experience and advice with new people to the biz, not smug and demeaning like he was. He probably flies for one of the contractors in a Shorts or something.....I guess that would kind of piss me off too now that I think about it...Hand flying a winged box with an attitude all night long would not be conducive to a positive work environment.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

I can't help it, that dude has negativity genetically ingrained into every one of his posts, even the one on the thread for underwater basket weaving (if there ever was one, LOL)....It just gets to me when someone new is looking for advice from experienced people and they get slammed like that.

I agree . . . sometime I just want to be as much of a jerk as they are, but all that will get us is more people acting like jerks. You are an intelligent woman, display that strength and intellect and no one can come back at you. I know from personal experience (although I'm not a woman)

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

The only way to get through to those guys is amplify what they dish out ten times and throw it back at em until they get sick of being attacked and they finally mellow out

What will happen is they will expose their true self at some point and then our mods can take care of it. We are all working at rising above the BS, I know you can too. Sometimes I write out a very stinging remark, well written and very sharp and even demeaning, but then I remember my goal is to elevate the discussion, not allow it to drop to the lowest common denominator (in no way did you come close to that) . . so I delete it and rise above it. I have only reported two people to the mods who got out of line, nearly every other person has come around to a better way of communicating (without amplification). I would love to have your kind of intellect working in this way with us.

[SteveC]

I <3 the bumblebee.

I owe you another adult beverage of your choosing Dale.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BigPoppa

I've looked all over the FAA site, but only find a vague mention of an "arrest record", but not sure if they actually mean arrest or only conviction.

Note: This is not legal advice.

I'm sticking with my overall advice to get professional assistance on this if it's important to you, but AFAIK, the issue is not the FAA - it's potential employers.

AFAIK, the FAA is only asks for this type of information in three places:

1. The 8710-1, which is the pilot certificate application and needs to be filled out each time you apply for a certifciate or rating, asks for convictions for drug-related offenses.

2. The medical certificate application goes further and asks for all non-traffic misdemeanor and felony convictions. It also asks for all legal events (whether or not you were convicted) that resulted in the suspension or revocation of driving privileges or referral to an education or treatment program (this is to catch DUIs, but goes further).

3. Sticking with the DUI issue, the FAA also has a self-reporting requirement for certain drivers license events that is contained in FAR 61.15.

Neither of these asks for plain "arrest" information.

There are also a number of security-related issues that trigger on arrests, but AFAIK, they also don't count without a conviction.

If you think this is complicated, that's only because it is - hence the need for professional assistance.