DAL/NWA: It's Official

[Doug Taylor]

I'm not sure DALPA has the ability to unilaterally negotiate a LOA for another carrier.

Basically, the LOA gives Southernjetters a little quid pro quo. There needed to be some contractual relief in order to complete the merger, but for that relief, there's a little scratch and some basic improvements.

After the two seniority lists are combined and there's actually a singular pilot group, then section six negotiations start for the WHOLE group.

NW was free to negotiate with their management team for something similar but did not.

Do NOT interpret this as me supporting the merger, which I do not at all.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

If USAPA ends up winning and the airline doesn't shut down overnight, I can fully see the cards starting to go out at NWA.

Why, do you think USAPA winning will kill US Airways? That would suck @ss...I'm buying a house soon.

[scramjet]

Originally Posted by Mad Doggy Dog

It will be Continental and Air Lingus.




All cockpits will be remaned "box office."

So that's who it will be.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'm not sure DALPA has the ability to unilaterally negotiate a LOA for another carrier.

They can't, but there were many things they could have done. For one, involve the NWA MEC by working together. DALPA is the only agent that can actually officially handle the negotiations with Delta management, but DALPA could have worked with the NWA MEC to set mutual goals that benefit both groups. For instance, I'm sure the NWA MEC would have liked to see a clause requiring expedited arbitration rather than the usual drawn out process. Instead, DALPA has used this as an opportunity to put pressure on the NWA MEC. Now they're faced with a long drawn out arbitration process that leaves them with their current contract for possible another 2-3 years while DAL pilots enjoy significant improvements and an equity stake in the combined carrier. DALPA has set up a nasty AAA/AWA-like scenario by locking out the NWA pilots from the process. Dumb move. Like I said, these things are never forgotten. You'll be flying with NWA pilots 20 years from now that will still be pissed off about this.

NW was free to negotiate with their management team for something similar but did not.

NWA management is not in the drivers' seat here. Technically, this is an acquisition by Delta. Negotiating with NWA management is a fruitless endeavor, not to mention the fact that Steenland will barely talk to you during Section 6 when he's required to; he certainly won't negotiate right now when he's not required to. DALPA had the power here, and they decided to exploit it rather than including their new brothers.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Why, do you think USAPA winning will kill US Airways?

Yep. Results will be known tomorrow afternoon around 2-3pm.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yep. Results will be known tomorrow afternoon around 2-3pm.

How so? Why would a change in union effect the company? Do you think the west pilots will walk off or create disruption to kill it?

Frustrating as I just upgraded for a US Air express carrier and am about to submit a bid on a house. The pilots are messing with a lot more lives than their own here.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by wheelsup (DAL/NWA: It's Official)
Why, do you think USAPA winning will kill US Airways?

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yep. Results will be known tomorrow afternoon around 2-3pm.

Let's hope USAPA doesn't win then- not just for the blow to ALPA, but for the thousands of people it'd put on the streets when USAir folds. Because when USAir folds, Air Wisconsin, part of Republic and a few others might go with it.

It'd be a damned shame for the greed of a few to spoil the jobs of so many.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

How so? Why would a change in union effect the company? Do you think the west pilots will walk off or create disruption to kill it?

Frustrating as I just upgraded for a US Air express carrier and am about to submit a bid on a house. The pilots are messing with a lot more lives than their own here.

uSAPa will create an internal civil war between the East and West. None of the West pilots will pay dues to the new "union," which will bankrupt it within a year, most likely, leaving them with no union at all. In the meantime, the West pilots will do everything in their power to show their anger over the situation by disrupting the whole operation. It's going to be a disaster. Hopefully there will be a miracle tomorrow and ALPA will squeak out a victory.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

It'd be a damned shame for the greed of a few to spoil the jobs of so many.

Amen. Apparently the East pilots don't understand what a union is all about.

[Doug Taylor]

I think it's a wacky idea too brother, don't get me wrong.

But I'm absolutely powerless.

There's people that like the idea, others that hate it.

There's people that approved the process of what DALPA engaged in, others that didn't.

There was some political upheaval going on behind closed doors in advance of this thing going down, but it largely failed.

But you know, it's like this. I prefer a standalone carrier. I am no fan of the Moak administration for a number of reasons, but it's what we've got, the sun's going to rise tomorrow, I still have recurrent, a Frankfurt trip afterwards and I'd like a bagel after I drop Kristie off at work in the next hour.

Might even make tacos tonight!

What's done is done the "powers that be" don't care about the employees, or even what we hem and haw about on an internet website. If it could drive things the way I'd prefer it to be, believe me, this website would "be all merger all the time" or the "MNN/Merger News Network", but my hands are tired.

If it comes to a point where I CAN affect change by either the ballot or activism, I'm on it like Britney Spears on the cover of People magazine.

Good or bad, for better or for worse...



The dude abides.....

[scramjet]

I guess the mechanics passed their transition agreement. Might not matter much though.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Semantics. An LOA becomes part of the contract, in effect replacing the portions that it amends.

Uh... no? Maybe at 9E they did, but most of our LOAs specifically state they are NOT part of the contract and are simply changing the wording while the LOA is in effect. The biggest problem is that right now the company seems to think that they can reinstate LOAs that are no longer effective when ever they want.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Why, do you think USAPA winning will kill US Airways? That would suck @ss...I'm buying a house soon.

Personally, I don't think it will kill the airline, but many people here seem to think it will. It was more of a sarcastic comment.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Technically, this is an acquisition by Delta.

Is it? Everything I've read shows it was an acquisition by outside money and the DAL management and name just happens to be surviving. I do agree with you though that as NWA's management has suddenly become lame ducks, they probably wouldn't have agreed to talk to their pilot group.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Uh... no? Maybe at 9E they did, but most of our LOAs specifically state they are NOT part of the contract and are simply changing the wording while the LOA is in effect. The biggest problem is that right now the company seems to think that they can reinstate LOAs that are no longer effective when ever they want.

For legal purposes, an LOA that changes contract language is part of the agreement. Technically, a new contract TA in Section 6 is nothing but an LOA that replaces the entire previous contract language. Now, you can include a clause in an LOA that states it's language can be canceled and reverted to the previous language within a set time frame (we did this on multiple occasions at PCL), or a set expiration date for some reason. That's probably what you're referring to at PSA.

Is it? Everything I've read shows it was an acquisition by outside money and the DAL management and name just happens to be surviving. I do agree with you though that as NWA's management has suddenly become lame ducks, they probably wouldn't have agreed to talk to their pilot group.

Technically, Delta is acquiring NWA by paying the NWA shareholders 1.25 shares of new DAL stock in exchange for each share of NWA stock.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

This merger only happened to make a couple of people more wealthy.

Even the press release said that the projected synergies may not be realized.

Just you wait. A few years down the road they'll be talking about breaking the two companies apart or something because the synergies didn't materialize.

Yes, I am cynical. But I'm usually right.

[PCL_128]

Naw, they'll never break the companies apart again, "synergies" realized or not. Trying to pry apart the two airlines after the merger would be impossible. But they will rape shareholders and employees while they continue to accept their multi-million dollar bonuses.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yep. Results will be known tomorrow afternoon around 2-3pm.

What were the results of the USAPA thing? Anyone know?

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

What were the results of the USAPA thing? Anyone know?

You'll have to wait til tomorrow between 2-3 P.M.

[Velocipede]

I'm just hoping the DAL guys stand firm and do to NWA pilots what NWA pilots did to the Republic guys.

A ratioed SLI will be the result if it gets to arbitration. Believe it.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I'm just hoping the DAL guys stand firm and do to NWA pilots what NWA pilots did to the Republic guys.

Come on, you know that's not reasonable. The Red Book guys are a minority at NWA now. To deliberately screw over the entire group as some sort of vendetta just against the Red Books would be wrong.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Come on, you know that's not reasonable. The Red Book guys are a minority at NWA now. To deliberately screw over the entire group as some sort of vendetta just against the Red Books would be wrong.

By the same token I think your analysis of the situation is wildly off the mark. I don't buy that Delta management or the Delta pilots are maneuvering to screw the NWA guys. The agreement between DALPA and management can be the framework for the NWA pilots. There is time to get together on the SLI to avoid a war. You're a little to quick on the cynical trigger.

As for the merger. It is the first of many leading to the eventual globalization of the industry. It's OK to complain about as pilots did about the last 4 mergers Delta was involved in. But it's a little crazy to think it isn't or wasn't going to happen. If I had any kids interested in this industry I'd hope it would consolidate as soon as possible. It's the only path to a more stable industry with rational costs and revenues.

Good thread. Good luck Doug.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by flyover

By the same token I think your analysis of the situation is wildly off the mark. I don't buy that Delta management or the Delta pilots are maneuvering to screw the NWA guys. The agreement between DALPA and management can be the framework for the NWA pilots. There is time to get together on the SLI to avoid a war. You're a little to quick on the cynical trigger.

It's not cynical, I simply know ALPA politics and how the system works. If the intent of DALPA was to craft a framework for the future combined list and joint contract, there were many things they could have done to get the support of the NWA pilots in that endeavor. Instead, they didn't even speak to the NWA pilots about their side deal until it was already made.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I'm just hoping the DAL guys stand firm and do to NWA pilots what NWA pilots did to the Republic guys.

A ratioed SLI will be the result if it gets to arbitration. Believe it.

Moderator Comment

[you're not helping with keeping to the educational mission statement of the site

why should that cycle of life continue? bad blood is bad blood....who would want bad blood to continue? oh wait.. you would huh? that is just so wrong, on so many levels... heck, you don't even have a dog in this fight.

[kellwolf]

The thought of "screw the NWA guys b/c they screwed Republic" is sorta backwards thinking. It'd be like Pinnacle buying Mesa and saying "Screw 'em b/c they started Freedom." Truth is, the guys that voted on Freedom are mostly LOOOOONG gone, so we'd be punishing people that had nothing to do with the situation.

It's gonna be ugly, that's for sure. When the dust settles, I just hope the company is still standing, prosepering and (more importantly) hiring. Delta's still my #1.

[H46Bubba]

I don't think so. I think both MEC's scewed their constituants. From what I've been hearing from several friends that are NW FO's, there are differing views between the NW pilots an their MEC. The MEC wants to stand it's ground, but a lot of the pilots just want to get a fair SLI and get on with things.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

I don't think so. I think both MEC's scewed their constituants. From what I've been hearing from several friends that are NW FO's, there are differing views between the NW pilots an their MEC. The MEC wants to stand it's ground, but a lot of the pilots just want to get a fair SLI and get on with things.

Sounds like some road shows or polling needs to get going so the MEC gets on the same page as the pilots. Having an MEC going against the wished of the pilots is just bad juju.

[Velocipede]

Well, Kristie, what goes around, comes around. The Delta guys have been more than reasonable up until now. The NWA guys did the initial "USAir East" grab for seniority. If they get hosed by the arbitrator, I'd look at it as some Red Book Karma coming home to roost.