DAL/NWA: It's Official

[moocowtex]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Poor comparison. NWA has more wide body aircraft and with older crustier pilots.

I'm guessing you meant Northwest had more widebodies in their previous merger, not more than Delta. Northwest has a few whales and 330's, but Delta has FAR more widebodies.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Realms09

Is it always the case that the union has a member on the Board of Directors?

Not always, but it's quite common with mainline ALPA carriers.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

domain: newglobalairline.com
created: 29-Jan-2008
last-changed: 20-Mar-2008

Hilarious. Management knew/planned this 2 1/2 months ago.

Oh, I think they've known about it far longer than that. You think Richard Anderson came on board last year just to run another airline? No way. I'd bet anything that the Board coaxed him over by offering him the chance to preside over the biggest airline merger in history. This has been in the works for a long, long time.

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

How did DL get around the exclusive rights of Northwest 's asian rights? I believe Japan and asia said that only planes under the operating cert of NWA could utilize that benefit.

That's an urban legend. As long as NWA survives in a merged carrier and isn't parted out in small pieces, the Asian rights are transferrable to the surviving carrier.

Originally Posted by Craig_Davidson

any chance of yet another Delta livery? To incorporate a little bit of NWA? Much like US and West did?

Screw that! They need to go back to the classic widget. Now this was a livery:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Arbitration. Yeah whatever.

Unfortunately, I think that's inevitable now unless the new DAL management agrees to give them a hell of a lot to settle it amicably. I like Captain Moak, but he's pissed off the cobras now. Dumb move. And Captain Prater is even dumber (something that he's quite consistent at, it seems) for allowing this to happen. Allowing one ALPA MEC to settle a unilateral contract that leaves out another ALPA MEC in a merger is suicide. Apparently Prater didn't learn any lessons from the AAA/AWA abortion that he also allowed to happen. Anyone want to place bets on how long it will take for the NWA guys to get uSAPa 2.0 started up? Stupid, stupid, stupid!

Originally Posted by wheelsup

This is America West/US Airways all over again.

Oh, I think that's a cakewalk compared to what we're about to see with this merger.

[MDPilot]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Poor comparison. NWA has more wide body aircraft and with older crustier pilots.

Not counting DAL orders for 777 and NWA orders for 787,

DAL
777:10
767-400ER: 21
767-300ER: 60
767-300: 20
Total 111 widebodies

NWA
747 28
330 32
Total 60 widebodies

So who has more widebody flying again?

[ladder360]

Wow. Is that just when they are flaccid??

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Allowing one ALPA MEC to settle a unilateral contract that leaves out another ALPA MEC in a merger is suicide. Apparently Prater didn't learn any lessons from the AAA/AWA abortion that he also allowed to happen. Anyone want to place bets on how long it will take for the NWA guys to get uSAPa 2.0 started up? Stupid, stupid, stupid!

Oh, I think that's a cakewalk compared to what we're about to see with this merger.

Are you beginning to see how USAPA has very little to do with trying to reorder the list and EVERYTHING to do with merger protection down the road? Right now the Allegheny Mohawk merger protection provided by Federal law is a hell of a lot better looking then ALPA's policy.

You're right... it is going to be ugly. If USAPA ends up winning and the airline doesn't shut down overnight, I can fully see the cards starting to go out at NWA.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Are you beginning to see how USAPA has very little to do with trying to reorder the list and EVERYTHING to do with merger protection down the road?

Uh, NO, that's not what I'm seeing. uSAPa is about the Nic award. That's all.

Right now the Allegheny Mohawk merger protection provided by Federal law is a hell of a lot better looking then ALPA's policy.

The problem isn't the merger policy, the problem is dimwit in the President's office in Herndon. If there was someone in office that actually knew how to lead, then this problem would have been taken care of properly. You do realize that ALPA merger policy isn't even involved in this so far, right? The agreement that DALPA made with Delta management is completely outside of the merger policy. Merger policy doesn't come into the picture until a merger has already been announced and a PID is declared. DALPA reached a unilateral agreement prior to any of that taking place. This is a whole different set of problem outside of merger policy.

You're right... it is going to be ugly. If USAPA ends up winning and the airline doesn't shut down overnight, I can fully see the cards starting to go out at NWA.

You're probably right. And if both NWA and AAA pilots leave ALPA, then that will probably mean the end of the Association. Then Prater's legacy will be that of the man who destroyed the 76-year old union that did everything to advance this profession. At least I'll be able to say that I supported the other guy.

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

... or it could mean more blood on the floor while formerly unassociated regionals wind up doing gladiator-style battles for contracts with mega majors.

They could always form a mega regional!

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

O great!!!!, why don't I just buy a beer for all the people on this thread??

Yes please.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by MDPilot

Not counting DAL orders for 777 and NWA orders for 787,

DAL
777:10
767-400ER: 21
767-300ER: 60
767-300: 20
Total 111 widebodies

NWA
747 28
330 32
Total 60 widebodies

So who has more widebody flying again?

You have a different pay scale for the 763 and 764? If Im not mistaken?

[Doug Taylor]

Yup. It's darned near capacity and productivity of a 777.

[MDPilot]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

You have a different pay scale for the 763 and 764? If Im not mistaken?

Wait a minute, do you want to compare payscales or numbers of widebodies. We can go either way, just tell me.

[n57flyguy]

I'm just posting for free beer in 4 years.

[SmoothLanderJ]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

hmm... sexy...?




A320 http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...g/00009941.jpg

A330 http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...g/00009670.jpg

B744 http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...g/00009040.jpg

Absolutely disgusting.......makes me want to puke! I dont have a problem with Delta at all, but I sure hope that this merger doesnt go through.

I read the NW ALPA e-mail earlier on this thread and how they were opposed and were going to try to stop it. How could they stop it, or what other factors could potentially prevent this merger from happening?

[Doug Taylor]

I'm not sure.

I sure in hell don't want it either.

But pretty much the only power I have in this whole thing is, well, hmm... holding my breath until the hedge funds, creditors, CEO's and other merger cheerleaders feel guilty because I'm turning blue. Well purple I guess (brown + blue? I dunno).

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Ok This Is The End Of The Beer Line!!!!!!!

Those Of You Who Wisely Posted Before This Get A Free Beer, Whenever I See You (diego) And The Rest At Njc2009!!!:d

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

Ok This Is The End Of The Beer Line!!!!!!!

Those Of You Who Wisely Posted Before This Get A Free Beer,

In this particular thread, or throughout the entire website, all threads inclusive?

Son, yo betta get a lawyer!

[Nick]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

Ok This Is The End Of The Beer Line!!!!!!!

Those Of You Who Wisely Posted Before This Get A Free Beer, Whenever I See You (diego) And The Rest At Njc2009!!!:d

Can I post un-wisely if I'm okay with buying my own beer?

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

In this particular thread, or throughout the entire website, all threads inclusive?

Son, yo betta get a lawyer!

I will represent myself!!!

Originally Posted by Nick

Can I post un-wisely if I'm okay with buying my own beer?

Sure!

[KLB]

Just buy a keg and give everyone one of those little sample cups that you get when you get samples in supermarkets. Consider this buying a beer. Pull out a contract, showing that you never specified the size of the beer, when they question it.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SmoothLanderJ

I read the NW ALPA e-mail earlier on this thread and how they were opposed and were going to try to stop it. How could they stop it, or what other factors could potentially prevent this merger from happening?

Unfortunately, there isn't much that the NWA MEC can do to stop the merger. The most they'll be able to do is submit a briefing to the DOT and DOJ about why they oppose the merger and what negative affects they think it will have for the economy and the consumers, but since the government departments are controlled by Shrub appointees, the opinions of a labor group won't mean anything. I guarantee that both managements have already made certain that their connections in government will see this merger approved. This is why it's so dangerous to have such a big-business-friendly administration in Washington.

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by KLB

Just buy a keg and give everyone one of those little sample cups that you get when you get samples in supermarkets. Consider this buying a beer. Pull out a contract, showing that you never specified the size of the beer, when they question it.

Nice idea!!

[Polar742]

Ask Atlas about Japanese rights.

When PO was acquired by Atlas Air World Wide Holdings, Polar has a bunch of traffic rights for Japan.

The bosses in Purchase landed an Atlas Airplane on a Polar landing right. The Japanese were not amused.

The second time they did that the Japanese impounded the plane for 24hours (shackled the nose gear), told them not to do it again or the 747 would return in shipping containers.

I'm sure the Atlantians are smart enough to negotiate with the Asians and not do that.

[SmoothLanderJ]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Unfortunately, there isn't much that the NWA MEC can do to stop the merger. The most they'll be able to do is submit a briefing to the DOT and DOJ about why they oppose the merger and what negative affects they think it will have for the economy and the consumers, but since the government departments are controlled by Shrub appointees, the opinions of a labor group won't mean anything. I guarantee that both managements have already made certain that their connections in government will see this merger approved. This is why it's so dangerous to have such a big-business-friendly administration in Washington.

Yeah I understand that completely. Sucks though.....

[n57flyguy]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

Ok This Is The End Of The Beer Line!!!!!!!

Those Of You Who Wisely Posted Before This Get A Free Beer, Whenever I See You (diego) And The Rest At Njc2009!!!:d

YESS! I made the cut off!

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Unfortunately, I think that's inevitable now unless the new DAL management agrees to give them a hell of a lot to settle it amicably. I like Captain Moak, but he's pissed off the cobras now. Dumb move. And Captain Prater is even dumber (something that he's quite consistent at, it seems) for allowing this to happen. Allowing one ALPA MEC to settle a unilateral contract that leaves out another ALPA MEC in a merger is suicide. Apparently Prater didn't learn any lessons from the AAA/AWA abortion that he also allowed to happen. Anyone want to place bets on how long it will take for the NWA guys to get uSAPa 2.0 started up? Stupid, stupid, stupid!



Oh, I think that's a cakewalk compared to what we're about to see with this merger.

You've got your facts wrong. It's not a contract, it's an LOA and it is only in existence until an SLI is agreed to and a joint contract is approved.

From the DAL MEC:

For the last several months, the goal of the Delta MEC was to achieve a comprehensive agreement which would have included a transition agreement, a joint pilot contract and an integrated seniority list. Unfortunately, we were unable to reach an agreement on seniority list integration with the Northwest MEC, which was a crucial part of the overall package.

Instead, we were able to negotiate Letter 19 which sets a “higher bar” for an eventual joint contract than would have otherwise existed without Letter 19. That is good for all pilots of the merged corporation. We still are actively encouraging three way talks between Delta and both pilot groups to achieve many of the same goals, including harmonization of our contracts to include these critical improvements.

Northwest’s contract specifies that if their carrier is acquired by another carrier, then their PWA remains in full effect for them until the Northwest MEC negotiates changes. We have to respect the independence of the Northwest pilots and their MEC to establish their own strategic plan.

The Delta MEC considers the combined Northwest and Delta pilot groups to be one group now and our every action will reflect that belief. We chose a course of action that we felt provided the most value to ALL Delta pilots including our brothers and sisters from Northwest. We will put the full power of the Delta MEC and the Delta pilots behind our efforts to achieve contract harmonization for Northwest pilots in a short period of time, and make will every effort to achieve a mutually agreeable solution on seniority list integration.

The two MECs have the option to form a joint negotiating committee at any time and ask the company to negotiate a joint contract. We have already worked through many of the items necessary to bring the Northwest pilots over to our working agreement, so we anticipate that much of the negotiation will focus on the economics of the deal. Both our PWA and the Northwest pilot’s PWA, stipulate that there can not be an integrated seniority list and full operational integration until we have a new joint contract. The economic benefits of this integration is are an incentive to Delta to achieve a joint contract.

We will aggressively pursue an SLI and this can be achieved at any time. As we have said, there are economic benefits to Delta and both pilot groups to have this happen as soon as possible. Our desire is to work together with the Northwest pilots to achieve these benefits as soon as possible.

If we are unable to achieve a consensual SLI, the ALPA Executive Council may declare a Policy Initiation Date (PID) which will start the clock on the ALPA Merger Policy. There will be a more detailed discussion of the mechanics of this policy in the future, but the basic process is Seniority List Verification, Negotiation, Mediated Negotiation, and finally, Arbitration.

Kevin

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by staplegun

You've got your facts wrong. It's not a contract, it's an LOA

Semantics. An LOA becomes part of the contract, in effect replacing the portions that it amends.

and it is only in existence until an SLI is agreed to and a joint contract is approved.

You're missing the point. The point is that the NWA MEC was not included, and now you've pissed them off. Bad move to begin a merger. Ask the green book guys at NWA if they've forgotten the wrongs that they perceived were done to them by the red books. This stuff is never forgotten. Moak is a smart guy. I would have expected a smarter move by him.