Am I the only one... - Page 2

MusketeerMan · April 15th, 2008, 00:31

I disagree. Have a good friend who built his own Glasair and is probably the best built airplane (including factory production) I've ever been in. When the FAA was giving him the certification, they told him word for word, "If all airplanes were built to this level, GA would be even safer than it already is". I guess it depends on who the puts the airplane together.

If it was someone I didn't know a lick about, I may not step in it..who knows.

Wittmandriver · April 30th, 2008, 09:32

I have been watching this site for a few years now and it is time to post a reply.

My first flight instructor hates homebuilts-don't know why. Maybe he just doesn't like me...when I told him I was flying a homebuilt around, he didn't answer back.

You will all have your own opinion. I can attest first-hand being an A&P that Cessna/Piper/(you name the company) aircraft are not all created with craftsmanship and care as you would like to believe. They are created with turning out as many units as they can with a product that can "pass" inspection. If you think all units coming out of the factory are inspected thoroughly, think again. Like any factory line, a unit gets picked for inspection every certain amount of units. Don't believe me? Then pop the cowling off or pull a panel off of your favorite trainer and look at the rivet job. If your eyes are trained like mine, your opinion may change a bit. I have seen rivets bent over like nails.

Granted, some homebuilts are not built up to snuff either. Mine is a Wittman Tailwind-built to plans steel tube/fabric fuselage with metal wings. It is built quite well with craftsmanship and care put in it. I do pamper it like a previous poster said, enough to where my wife calls it my "mistress". Plus, it will out-perform all but your fastest singles and twins on the line. I get places in a hurry very efficiently. Most homebuilts are built better than most factory builts, in my opinion. When it is all said and done, with both factory and homebuilt aircraft, pilot error causes most fatalities, a proven fact.

Wittmandriver

WacoFan · April 30th, 2008, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wittmandriver

I have been watching this site for a few years now and it is time to post a reply.

My first flight instructor hates homebuilts-don't know why. Maybe he just doesn't like me...when I told him I was flying a homebuilt around, he didn't answer back.

You will all have your own opinion. I can attest first-hand being an A&P that Cessna/Piper/(you name the company) aircraft are not all created with craftsmanship and care as you would like to believe. They are created with turning out as many units as they can with a product that can "pass" inspection. If you think all units coming out of the factory are inspected thoroughly, think again. Like any factory line, a unit gets picked for inspection every certain amount of units. Don't believe me? Then pop the cowling off or pull a panel off of your favorite trainer and look at the rivet job. If your eyes are trained like mine, your opinion may change a bit. I have seen rivets bent over like nails.

Granted, some homebuilts are not built up to snuff either. Mine is a Wittman Tailwind-built to plans steel tube/fabric fuselage with metal wings. It is built quite well with craftsmanship and care put in it. I do pamper it like a previous poster said, enough to where my wife calls it my "mistress". Plus, it will out-perform all but your fastest singles and twins on the line. I get places in a hurry very efficiently. Most homebuilts are built better than most factory builts, in my opinion. When it is all said and done, with both factory and homebuilt aircraft, pilot error causes most fatalities, a proven fact.

Wittmandriver

Excellent post! The Wittman Tailwind is an exceptional and efficient airplane. Steve Wittman was a genius. What engine do you have in your machine? What kind of speed are you getting? Thanks for your post - can you post pictures of your plane?

av8sean · April 30th, 2008, 09:45

I'd rather get in a well-built homebuilt than some 1960's-1970's rust bucket Cessna or Piper ANY day.

Murdoughnut · April 30th, 2008, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8sean

I'd rather get in a well-built homebuilt than some 1960's-1970's rust bucket Cessna or Piper ANY day.

Gotta disagree - that rust bucket 60s or 70s model Cessna/Piper has already demonstrated its ability to fly safely for several decades. A homebuilt is one loose screw away from disaster. To each his own, though.

RightSeatGirl · April 30th, 2008, 15:26

Something worth mentioning here is that experimentals are a category of their own when considering home builts. Home builts merely get an experimental designation for an airworthiness cert.

For example, a civilian owed and flown T-38 carries an experimental designation. Would you take a ride in one of those if offered? Also there are production aircraft such as some Glass Air's, I believe, that still retain an experimental designation.

KBUF · April 30th, 2008, 16:15

I have no problems with homebuilts. I did a stage of the WINGS program with a guy in his Zenith Zodiac in one of my first few hours of flying as a CFI. I thought it was a nice airplane.

Omdahl · April 30th, 2008, 16:38

A controller I work with has an RV6 that took him about 6 years to build. I had no problem getting in that plane with him. He had to pass an inspection and also had to fly off 40 hours before he could take a passenger. It's a sweet plane.

GreenDayPilot · April 30th, 2008, 18:24

I went up in a "Spirit" once while I was instructing in North Las Vegas.... one of the scariest experiences of my life!

It was a bit nerve-wrecking just cruising and doing basic maneuvers (btw, they're not required to have a stall warning indicator), but the real scare came on the final landing. Everything was going ok, until the we caught a bit of wind during the flare. Next thing I know the wing is way up in the air and it felt like our ground track was still over the runway, but the airplane was perpendicular to it... for a quick second I was just bracing myself for a crash. Scary S***!

Wittmandriver · April 30th, 2008, 21:12

Steve Wittman is my hero. Not just because he designed the plane, but because he was the little guy who made it big. In his 60 plus years of air racing, he never had one sponsor. And if you do not think he did well, go to the Airventure Museum and check out his wall. Truly amazing! He was known as "Mr. Aviation" and of course the Oshkosh, Wisconsin airport was named after him.

The avtar picture is of my Tailwind.

I am sorry you had a bad experience in a homebuilt. It is not fair to judge all homebuilts because of a bad experience. I have had just as many events that prickled my neckhairs in Citabrias and Cessnas as I have in my Tailwind. My hours are about equal in factory builts and my Tailwind. I think I have learned more about flying in my Tailwind though. My over the fence speed is 80mph. Landing a taildragger going that fast, sometimes at night, requires a pilot to be definitely on his toes. After I learned to fly, I was on final in a 172 to Jefferson County Airport on the Olympic Peninsula in WA. When I was about ready to flare, the same experience happened to me-a gust of wind lifted a wing up so fast on me it scared the bejesus out of me. All I saw was grass in the windshield. All it took was an instantaneous response and a go-around. My first landing in my Tailwind after completion-I now belong to the ranks of test pilots

-left a lot to be desired. It was the worst bounce and porpoise session I have ever had. However, I am now able to grease it most of the time-depends on the wind. It likes both grass and concrete equally. It only likes doing wheel landings, though, and that is fine with me. There is not much for a flare in it. It is mostly just to flatten out to landing attitude. What it is NOT is a trainer for the inexperienced. Most homebuilts are not designed with that mission in mind since there are so many Pipers and Cessnas fullfilling the training role.

There is no stall warning or AOA indicator in mine either, and that is ok with me. It is the only plane I fly right now and nobody else flies it. I know my speeds. It will not power off stall dirty. It hangs on and is still flying, although dropping 1200ft per minute, below 50mph. This is due to the lifting body fuselage. Power on clean it stalls around 68mph and the nose drops with no wing drop. It is really a non-event. What you do have in all situations is an incredible sink rate befoe it stalls. That is a good warning for me. You can feel it in the seat of your pants in the beginning stage of the sink. Just watch the airspeed and verify with GPS.

One plus:it is the straightest trailing taildragger I have ever taxi'd on the ground-much easier than a Citabria. You do not muscle controls, either, or it will bite you.

Wittmandriver

Wittmandriver · April 30th, 2008, 21:37

Oh yeah, it has a 150 HP O-320E2A with a fresh overhaul originally from a Cherokee 140. The prop is a wood 68X73.

I made many mods this winter and need a calm day to get some good figures. Last Saturday, I was going into a 14 knot headwind at 1950RPM (it was rough so I crawled along) and my GPS said 120kts. I usually plan at 160kts. VNE is 200mph. I can make that in straight and level flight now. I have done fly-bys at 210mph. I do not like going above VNE except in smooth air.

It gets the equivalent of 23-25mpg in cruise. Not bad with today's gas prices. Total cost per hour in gas ranges $30-$45 depending on if I am X country or staying in the pattern. I estimate it costs me around $60 per hour to operate.

Wittmandriver

WacoFan · April 30th, 2008, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wittmandriver

Oh yeah, it has a 150 HP O-320E2A with a fresh overhaul originally from a Cherokee 140. The prop is a wood 68X73.

I made many mods this winter and need a calm day to get some good figures. Last Saturday, I was going into a 14 knot headwind at 1950RPM (it was rough so I crawled along) and my GPS said 120kts. I usually plan at 160kts. VNE is 200mph. I can make that in straight and level flight now. I have done fly-bys at 210mph. I do not like going above VNE except in smooth air.

It gets the equivalent of 23-25mpg in cruise. Not bad with today's gas prices. Total cost per hour in gas ranges $30-$45 depending on if I am X country or staying in the pattern. I estimate it costs me around $60 per hour to operate.

Wittmandriver

Thanks for the info - great plane. Wish you could post a larger picture - your avatar is small.

OldTownPilot · May 1st, 2008, 01:03

Once I settle into an engineering job, the first thing I'm buying is an RV-7 kit.

SoCalAprch · May 1st, 2008, 01:59

I don't even trust myself to change the brakes on my car so I don't know if I would trust my craftsmanship on an aircraft. However like said before if I know you and trust the plane I would have no problem flying in it, Iv flown some 150s that probably shouldn't have been flying so who knows.

Boris Badenov · May 1st, 2008, 03:59

If the Wright Bros had waited for FAA certification, we'd all be stage coach drivers.

Seriously, most accidents are yoke actuator failure. Use some common sense and have some fun. You can snooze on autopilot and program FMS later.

PS. Plenty of homebuilts ARE built and flown by A&Ps. Maybe they know something you don't?

Wittmandriver · May 1st, 2008, 07:11

There are a few pics on http://www.flickr.com/photos/tailwindforum/

The pic that matches the avtar is on the first page. There are a few more there also. There is a frontal view and some mod pics. Thee are some in flight too if you look through the whole site. A lot of pics on there are from a guy who is on his 10th Tailwind build. He makes all of us look like amateurs.

This is a builder's web site. I would like to say, with humbleness and humility, that there are A&P's that can't build their way out of a wet paper bag and there are some non-A&P's that can build Oshkosh winners and their craftsmanship is second to none. Myself, I am glad I learned what I learned in school so I have the knowledge to do this. Additionally I am keeping in practice/learning and also gaining flight time in my own airplane. You can't beat that.

Wittmandriver

Hacker15e · May 1st, 2008, 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

A homebuilt is one loose screw away from disaster.

So is any other aircraft.

An F-15 recently had the nose fall off because it had incorrectly manufactured upper longerons. Subsequently 40% of the F-15 fleet was grounded for good because of manufacturing defects in the longerons.

This is a $20 million jet, bro. Just because something is "factory built" doesn't mean dick.

I'm with the guys who say that homebuilts can run the gamut from outstanding to death-trap, all depending on who built it and with how much time, money, and care.

BenWlson · May 1st, 2008, 10:08

I would stongly suggest that anyone who hasn't done it before go check out an EAA event. Be it AirVenture in Oshkosh, Sun n' Fun in Lakeland, one of the regional fly-ins, or even just a local EAA chapter pancake breakfast fly-in. There is always a great display of homebuilts at these events. Take the time to really look them over, talk to the owners about them, and I'm sure you'll come away with a greater respect for the quality of workmanship in the majority of these airplanes.

Grabo172 · May 1st, 2008, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

So is any other aircraft.

That's exactly right... any airplane, be it Home built or Factory built, is subject to the same loose bolt. That's what a good preflight is for...

But I know a lot of Home builts are built so that you CAN look at almost every bolt during the preflight... Not so true about some factory builts. You just have to trust that the person who put that plane together at the factory did it right, with no way to really check...

Wittmandriver · May 1st, 2008, 12:15

It kind of sounds like there are quite a few biased individuals here. My first CFI was one of them. Maybe he had his reasons. I will still thank him until the day I die for teaching me to fly, but we do have a big difference in opinion.

Here is another issue to chew on. So many times, someone's opinion is the same as or influenced by instructors/teachers. For instance, take a look at political org's on college campuses. Most are quacks influenced by faculty, whether left or right. If they had a mortgage, family, kids, etc, their political views would be totally different. Faculty is so out of touch sometimes. Flight instructors can be the same way. They go through the training pipeline, straight to airlines picking up misconceptions from their instructors doing the same thing. Sometimes they are quite young and easily influenced. Then, they get to the airlines, and being the way they are taught to be, start to berate GA and how the little guys are in "their" way and they start to believe all the airline rhetoric trying to shut down the very people that trained them. Face it, the airlines are there to make money without a care for anything else, pilots included-period. Airlines have their place, but it is not in my future.

I wish some, notice I am not saying all, because it would be stupid to generalize, instructors would get real and teach people right. I plan on becoming one because I am passionate about teaching people correctly and without bias after I finish my Navy career. I have been fortunate to fly with a few of them. Thank you.

Instructors going to the airlines-do not forget where you came from! Unless, you want your salaries to continue to decline, pensions taken away, training costs to skyrocket, etc. Think about this: The airlines will find themselves training their own pilots because they will have succeeded in shutting down GA in an extremely expensive user fee-laden environment with ATC controlled by them. That is what they want... Is that what you all want? If so, you think you are a slave now...You'll have to win the lottery to be able to leave because you will be so far in debt with no end in sight.

Well, the skies will be cleaner for them. Fly the "friendly skies".

Lemmings come to mind when I think about this...

Wittmandriver

TexasFlyer · May 2nd, 2008, 01:28

Depends on who built it for me. If a good A&P/ Engineer built it and I knew him to be very meticulous, I'd fly in the homebuilt.

But right now, I do not know anyone who I would get in a plane with if they built it. And I know for darn sure, if I built an airplane I would not want to be the one flying it!!!

PGT · May 2nd, 2008, 02:47

I'm pretty open to them, but that's because my instructor is building one and so is the guy in the next door hanger.

Ramp Romeo · May 2nd, 2008, 03:41

I'd do it, gladly.

Some of the nicest planes I've seen are kits.

Look at the canards that Velocity puts out. Very nice indeed.

The way I look at it, if it has say over 100TT, I'd feel comfortable enough in it.

I'm weary of a plane that's older than me, but I still get in it. As for The ones that were built during the era of a 48 star flag... I just might feel more comfortable in a kit.

At least a kit build has a fresh motor, I guess.