So you want to be a pilot?

[UPSpilot]

Originally Posted by mrambo

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/bu.../10pilots.html

April 10, 2008
For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality

By JEFF BAILEY
IRVING, Tex. — Among the jobs little boys dream of — policeman, fireman, bulldozer driver — airline pilot long held the added virtue of satisfying grown-up dreams: pay that reached $300,000 a year, 20 days a month off work, the prestige of one day commanding a $200 million airplane, and a lush retirement at 60.

But the airline industry’s financial collapse this decade did away with much of that, leaving thousands of young men — and increasingly women — chasing a dream toward a disappointing reality.

“My wife thinks I’m nuts,” said Jason Captain, 32, of Fort Worth who left the Navy last November, walking away from $75,000-a-year lieutenant’s pay for flying military brass in and out of Guantánamo Bay.

He started training last month to fly a 76-seat regional jet for a Northwest Airlines subsidiary and expects to make about $21,000 his first year. Like most airline pilots, Mr. Captain had his heart set on flying “ever since I was a little kid,” he said. “I can’t see myself in an office.”

In recent years, he and his wife, June, were in the odd position of saving part of his military pay so they and their two sons could afford to have him work in the private sector. It could take him a decade to work his way back up to his former income.

He hopes, of course, to jump ultimately to the big jets at Northwest Airlines, where the most senior pilots can still make more than $150,000 a year, but there is no guarantee he will get there.

And, with the airline industry ready to go into another swoon because of high fuel prices, Mr. Captain and other junior pilots could find themselves furloughed.

“You’re much better off going into plumbing, from a purely financial perspective,” said Ed Grogan, a financial planner in Gig Harbor, Wash., who has pilots among his clients.

The military is turning out fewer pilots, so aspiring aviators increasingly attend private flight schools, emerging with as much as $150,000 in student debt. Student loan payments can exceed $1,000 a month.

After Sept. 11, 2001, the biggest domestic airlines reduced their fleets by hundreds of planes, so they needed fewer pilots. And through actual and threatened bankruptcies, airlines managed to cut pilot pay by 30 percent or more. Many pilots lost big parts of their pensions. Work hours increased.

Certainly, top pay of $200,000 a year at the biggest airlines, down from $300,000, is still a nice living.

But cuts at big airlines were just the beginning of the decline in pilot careers. Regional airlines, which pay far less than hub-and-spoke carriers even after the pay cuts, expanded to handle much of the flying that bigger airlines had abandoned. Many new pilot jobs are like the one Mr. Captain is taking, with a rock-bottom starting wage that creeps slowly toward $100,000 a year.

Poor pay and fewer big-airline jobs to move up to have led to fewer applicants, creating a pilot shortage that is most acute overseas but is also felt here.

Regional airlines have had to reduce hiring standards drastically. Earlier this decade, they could insist on a candidate’s having at least 1,500 hours of total flight time before an interview. Today, that minimum is 500 hours at many regional carriers. The decline is contributing to safety concerns among some experts.

The seniority system — a new pilot starts at the bottom at most airlines, earning the lowest pay and getting the worst shifts — limits job-hopping. So choosing the right employer the first time around is crucial. Moving from first officer, the right seat, to captain, the left seat, brings the biggest leap in pay and status.

Thus, Mr. Captain, who looks forward to being called Captain Captain, turned down a job at American Eagle Airlines, the regional division of American Airlines. It initially paid better, but the wait to upgrade to captain is six and a half years. At the Northwest regional carrier, Compass, which is growing, he could make captain in as little as one year.

But things change. Network carriers like United Airlines and Delta Air Lines hire regional carriers, which are separate companies, to fly feeder routes from smaller cities into hub airports. But the big airlines renegotiate contracts every few years, often switching carriers to reduce costs. That means today’s fast-growing regional airline could be laying off pilots tomorrow.

“It’s a nightmare,” said Kit Darby, who retired a year ago as a United pilot and runs a pilot job fair business, Air Inc.

Some pilots leave the business. Paul Rice, a vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a pilots union, said that in previous decades nearly 100 percent of furloughed pilots came back when temporary layoffs ended. Since Sept. 11, 2001, though, 30 to 35 percent did not return when offered their old jobs.

At Mesa Air Group, a big regional carrier, 784 pilots left last year, some moving up to hub-and-spoke network carriers, some moving laterally to other regional airlines and about 10 percent leaving the business altogether, said Michael Jayson, until recently the pilots union chief at Mesa. Turnover is high at some other regional airlines, too.

Todd Lehmacher, 39, learned to fly as a teenager and worked a variety of airline jobs in crew scheduling and as a ticket pricing specialist and flight attendant while accumulating the flying hours to be a pilot. “It was something I just had to do,” he said.

He was hired by Mesa in August 2005, but long hours and unpleasant relations between pilots and management wore on him.

He sometimes slept on the plane during late shifts — “camping trips,” pilots call them — that required him to fly again early the next morning. He said he often worked a 13-hour day to get in five hours of flying time, the only hours pilots are paid for.

Mr. Lehmacher quit last September and runs a travel agency in Phoenix that sells cruise trips to airline workers.

Mesa officials did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Samantha Negley did not get the flying bug until a boyfriend took her up in a four-seat Cessna in 1999. It was a bright day in San Luis Obispo, Calif., and they flew over farms, across the beach and over the ocean. “He let me take the controls. It was amazing,” said Ms. Negley, who is now 30.

She graduated from college that year with a journalism degree and spent four years working odd jobs — tending bar, substitute teaching, tutoring — to save money for flight lessons. Landings were her favorite part.

In an essay for a $1,500 scholarship she won to supplement her flight school costs, Ms. Negley said she planned a life around flying. “In five years, I plan to be a captain at Mesa Airlines,” she wrote. “In 10 years, I plan to be a first officer with a major airline, awaiting my chance to upgrade.”

She was accepted at a New Mexico flight school that feeds pilot candidates to Mesa and was hired in 2004. “The day I found out was like the best day ever,” she said. Making about $15,000 initially, and saddled with $50,000 of school debt, she moved in with her sister in Washington, flying out of Dulles Airport.

A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.

She also worked overnight shifts, sleeping across a row of seats and being awakened by a gate agent in time to brush her teeth in the plane lavatory and tuck her shirt in before passengers came aboard. “It was crazy,” she said.

“I was enjoying the landings. I was living my whole life for those three minutes a day.” Otherwise, she thought, “this is the worst life ever.”

She quit last July and went to work at Mattel, where she writes copy for packaging of Hot Wheels and other toys. She makes more money and has whittled her student debt down to $30,000.

She knows she will be home every night in Long Beach to walk the dogs. She plays beach volleyball. And became engaged in February. “Normal job. Normal life,” she said. “I know I made the right decision.”

It's still possible. I'm living proof. UPS along with FedEx, still offer those career possibilities.

[Matt13C]

I try and stay away from threads like these so I can keep the discouragement to a minimum. I am still in the beginning phase of the long journey to being a professional pilot. This article as well as many other current events are really making me second guess my decision though. Don't get me wrong, I love flying, it is all I can think about. When I am working a job that I hate I get myself through the day thinking "at the end of the day I will have enough for 1.5 hours of flying"!

To me it is equivalent to being a professional athlete, sans the millions of dollars and gorgeous women throwing themselves at you. I get the same feeling flying as I do when I play ice hockey, I am only 5'6" so a pro career was out of the question, Brian Gionta I am not. I don't know, maybe I am just too new and can not see reality through the spinning of the prop.

It really can't be as bad as some say. I look at that list that Zap wrote and I think to myself, I could make a similar list for when I worked retail or when I worked for a direct marketing company. No job is glamorous and every job will have aspects you hate. I feel like an average day flying an airplane is better than any day sitting in an office. Again, maybe I am being overly optimistic, only time will tell.

But more and more I have been thinking about going back to the corporate world even though I could not stand it, for some financial security. I mean, in what other profession can a person have 20 years experience and potentially have to go back to making 20k a year? I know that no job is certain. But at least in business when you get experience you can take that experience out into the world and demand a higher salary from others. Experience in an airplane only gets you an interview. With some exceptions, it seems like regardless of experience if you go to a new company you are entry level and paid as such, which I find very backwards.

Sorry for the rambling, I just have all these thoughts floating around in my head and felt like vocalizing them, via type.

[MDPilot]

Originally Posted by Matt13C

It really can't be as bad as some say.

Wanna bet?

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by UPSpilot

It's still possible. I'm living proof. UPS along with FedEx, still offer those career possibilities.

For a very, very, very select few. Let's be honest.

But, yes, those job opportunities do exist. Maybe one day....maybe.

SOME corporate gigs pay very, VERY well - however, one has to keep in mind the stability of the company one flies for. Often times, if the company experiences financial trouble, the flight department may be one of the first to go.

I had an interview last year (didn't get it) to be a FO on a Challenger 601. Private owner. About $65K to start. $70K after 90 days with bonuses, health & life, 401K, etc., etc. Type-rating to be included.

The sky was the limit.

However, once that 'private owner' was gone, so was the job.

I'm only 2 years into the regional experience. I'm currently 383 from upgrade. That number is dwindling every week. Hopefully, by the time I can upgrade, get a good amount of TPIC, the legacies will be hiring again.

Time will tell. Until then, those like me just have to be patient and see how the industy turns out.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by ready2fly

Hopefully, by the time I can upgrade, get a good amount of TPIC, the legacies will be hiring again.] (emphasis added)

The problem that I see is that there are fewer and fewer mainline positions to gain. You have to look no further than the nearest hub. Rows and rows of mainline gates with RJs parked on them. Not only are the regionals undercutting mainline, regionals are undercutting other regionals. Take a look at the Comair terminal in CVG. CLT used to have "2" commuter airlines, now it has about a dozen "regionals."

I miss the days of 727s, DC-9/10s L10-11s, and 737s lining all the gates. Go to airliners.net (sorry Doug) and do a search of your local hub in the 60s-80s. Then compare what you see to today's terminals.

[ladder360]

If there's one major lesson I've learned from almost a decade and a half in the business world (in a few different industries), it's that the best thing one can do is always position himself/herself to be flexible.

There's always buggering going on. Sometimes you're on the top, other times you're on the bottom. Might as well make yourself comfortable and enjoy the ride.

[NC_BE300]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

I miss the days of 727s, DC-9/10s L10-11s, and 737s lining all the gates. Go to airliners.net (sorry Doug) and do a search of your local hub in the 60s-80s. Then compare what you see to today's terminals.

Of the things that have changed over the years..... the DL Terminal 2/3 at JFK hasn't.
Still the same old chunk of JFK that needs a major facelift.

Mainline DL for the most part still dominates the gates-with the only exception being the CRJ900 at the T3 gates sometimes. And then of course the outside boarding gates for the rest of the RJ's.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

I miss the days of...

It's quite possible that the majors will be nothing but a name in the future, with all of their flying out for bid, and all they do is sell tickets, a la Ticket Masters.

[Matt13C]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

It's quite possible that the majors will be nothing but a name in the future, with all of their flying out for bid, and all they do is sell tickets, a la Ticket Masters.

So do you think that a few of the regionals will become like Southwest, a low cost carrier that actually pays well and does not depend on majors for their route?

[Firebird2XC]

I'd say the hardest part of it all is that there are people flying airline gigs for the respective salaries that they are.

I think Doug said something to the tune of flying a 70 seat jet as a captain for $70k a year was crazy. He's right.

The other day on CNN I saw a story about how men in their thirties make less than their fathers did when they were in their 30s.

There's something very wrong with that. If economic growth occurs at the expense of the middle class, it means you're driving the bulk of the population into poverty and a select few into aristocracy.

We need to get behind our unions, and anybody else we can get to help us to get major reform with how corporations deal with labor groups.

Some pencil pushing stuffed suit has no right to cut the throat of *my* American dream simply because it's the least hassle for him. Accountability must be had!

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by Matt13C

So do you think that a few of the regionals will become like Southwest, a low cost carrier that actually pays well and does not depend on majors for their route?

Sure...because the airline industry has done sooooooo well since LCCs started popping up.

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

The other day on CNN I saw a story about how men in their thirties make less than their fathers did when they were in their 30s.

Want to be really depressed? A widebody Capt in 1982 was making $248,000/yr. Adjusted for the cost of living, that would equal to $532,750 today. Needless to say, there isn't ANY airline pilot making enough to compensate for the COLA adjustment. That is why I say that the "glory days" are gone. There is simply no way that pay will ever increase to the scale that it once was. The economy and the (poor) state of the airlines will not allow it. There also wasn't an over abundance of LCCs and regionals competing (undercutting) each others routes.
http://www.aier.org/research/cost-of...ing-calculator

Strangely enough, "commuter" airlines were paying FOs $20K/yr to fly turboprops (SD36, J31s etc) in 1986. That should equal $37,800 today.

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

The problem that I see is that there are fewer and fewer mainline positions to gain. You have to look no further than the nearest hub. Rows and rows of mainline gates with RJs parked on them. Not only are the regionals undercutting mainline, regionals are undercutting other regionals. Take a look at the Comair terminal in CVG. CLT used to have "2" commuter airlines, now it has about a dozen "regionals."

I miss the days of 727s, DC-9/10s L10-11s, and 737s lining all the gates. Go to airliners.net (sorry Doug) and do a search of your local hub in the 60s-80s. Then compare what you see to today's terminals.

Good points, no doubt.

I only mentioned legacies mainly because the article seemed to centered on the airlines.

I'm keeping all options open though (obviously, I interviewed for a corporate gig ). I do still look forward to upgrading. Regardless of how many legacy slots open up in the future, I tend to believe that an individual would be much more competitive as a captain than they would be as a FO.

No?

[aifiji]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

The problem that I see is that there are fewer and fewer mainline positions to gain. You have to look no further than the nearest hub. Rows and rows of mainline gates with RJs parked on them. Not only are the regionals undercutting mainline, regionals are undercutting other regionals. Take a look at the Comair terminal in CVG. CLT used to have "2" commuter airlines, now it has about a dozen "regionals."

I miss the days of 727s, DC-9/10s L10-11s, and 737s lining all the gates. Go to airliners.net (sorry Doug) and do a search of your local hub in the 60s-80s. Then compare what you see to today's terminals.

Regionals taking over, and the price of an airline ticket keeps going up!

[mcbenwa]

Man up guys.... that's all I can say. What did you expect in this industry?

[PGT]

ahh shoot looks like I'll have to pick another career to become rich

[BCTAv8r]

Originally Posted by PGT

ahh shoot looks like I'll have to pick another career to become rich

How are we supposed to get chicks now?

[surreal1221]

Can we make a necropost exception to this thread?

[ryanmickG]

Originally Posted by ready2fly

SOME corporate gigs pay very, VERY well - however, one has to keep in mind the stability of the company one flies for. Often times, if the company experiences financial trouble, the flight department may be one of the first to go.

I thought the same thing before I took a corporate job. I think corporate is far more stable than the airlines.

I wouldn't mind freight but I would never see my family. There is no way financially that I could work at the airlines. There are CFI's making twice what the regionals are paying.

[PGT]

Originally Posted by BCTAv8r

How are we supposed to get chicks now?

I know!! I gotta say goodbye to Ferrari F430 and blonde girls.

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by ryanmickG

I thought the same thing before I took a corporate job. I think corporate is far more stable than the airlines.

I thought the same thing too. And I suspect that it's true with small companies, car dealerships, individuals, etc. But what i've found is that when things get rough the execs fly more. They're getting out into the field to find out what is going on, then getting back to the office asap.

Although we're a big line item on the P&L, it isn't hard to quantify our value. If we can get an executive into the field and home the same day, we have saved him/her hours or days vs. airline flying. That time has value in terms of lost productivity and improved work/life balance.