Cross Country Advice

Citationkid · April 9th, 2008, 22:26

Hey,

I was talking to my boss tonight, and we decided it would be neat to go on an adventure during my upcoming break from school. I have got ten days off to work with. Right now our trip looks somthing like this:

Day One
EVY-LOU-SGF

Day Three
SGF-ABQ-LAS

Day Five
LAS-OAK

Day Six
OAK-SAN

Day Seven
SAN-SEZ

Day Eight
SEZ-TUL-M54

Day Nine
M54-EVY

We will be seeing a few shows in Branson, MO and in Vegas as well as visiting one of his relatives in OAK and in M54 (near Nashville). The other airports are all either fuel stops, or just places we think would be neat to spend the night (like Sedona and San Diago). If anyone knows of any other places that might be cooler to visit than Sedona or something out that way, let me know. I have only spent two nights of my life west of the Rockies, so I really do not know much of what is out there. We will probally not want to go into the major airports like LAS or OAK, so any recommendation as to which airport we should use would be appreciated.

I have never done any real mountain flying. Are there any good websites out there that do a good job covering it? Mountain waves are my biggest concern. How tough is it to come out of a place like LAS or SEZ, IFR in a plane that climbs 430 ft/nm?

Thanks,

Alex.

v1valarob · April 9th, 2008, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citationkid

How tough is it to come out of a place like LAS or SEZ, IFR in a plane that climbs 430 ft/nm?

With ATP we flew a Seminole out of VGT (North Las Vegas) all the time and had no problem. A few weeks ago NJT916 and I flew a Cessna 172 out of VGT over the mountains towards Riverside, CA no problem.

Its pretty bad ass, when you leave VGT they will have you turn towards the stratosphere and fly on the north side of it, then have you fly down the strip, and fly over the approach end of the runway being used at LAS. Its an awesome view. Vegas approach is amazingly helpful.

-Rob

BobDDuck · April 9th, 2008, 22:37

Sounds fun. The few things I can give you suggestions on...

You probably want to go in and out of VGT when you are in Vegas. Depending on how you come in, you probably will be able to cross the numbers at LAS and then head up the strip to enter the downwind at VGT. Climbing out at 430ft/nm shouldn't be too bad there. There is a departure track that gets you climbing before you get to the hills.

SEZ can be pretty tricky, even in good weather. It gets squirrelly with the winds and the sight picture can really screw you up. I used to take students up there in both the Cessna and the Seminole and it kicked a bunch of their butts. It's a great place to fly into though, and there is/used to be a pretty good restaurant on the field.

The thing about SEZ is that I would make darn sure you come in and leave in daylight. It's not a place to be messing around at night. Besides, you won't be able to see the red rocks too well in the dark. Your climb rate there should be ok, as long as you follow the departure procedures. Also, keep in mind the runway has a pretty good slope to it. Unless you really need to because of the winds, try to land to the east and take off to the west.

I don't have too much mountain fly experience either, but basic stuff like crossing ridge lines at an angle and always having an out are imperative.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, unlike the east coast, once you get out west, there isn't an airport every 10 feet. Even now in a jet, on the east coast it is rare for me to ever be more then 60 miles from a 5000 foot runway. There are places out west where you could be 100 miles from a 3000 foot runway. It just makes you plan that much more.

Do your research, but have fun. I miss that kind of flying.

JEP · April 9th, 2008, 22:41

If you ask for a strip route they may not give it. One thing we learned from the ATC tour a while back was to ask for "numbers, numbers, north" that track will take you right up the strip.

v1valarob · April 9th, 2008, 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEP

If you ask for a strip route they may not give it. One thing we learned from the ATC tour a while back was to ask for "numbers, numbers, north" that track will take you right up the strip.

They will also ask if your familiar with the area. When I first did it, I had someone familiar with me, and after that I was familiar. So I am not sure what they will give you if your unfamiliar.

How many times can you say familiar?

-Rob

meritflyer · April 9th, 2008, 23:30

SEZ!?! Yikes!

I never let my students go there.

JEP · April 9th, 2008, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1valarob

They will also ask if your familiar with the area. When I first did it, I had someone familiar with me, and after that I was familiar. So I am not sure what they will give you if your unfamiliar.

How many times can you say familiar?

-Rob

yep, that is what the controller told us. he said the key words were number, numbers, north. that was their clue that you knew what you were asking for....

racemey · April 9th, 2008, 23:40

OAK is pretty GA friendly, so if that is closest to who you are visiting, stick with it. Otherwise, HWD to the south about 20 nm, CCR just over the hills to the NE and LVK to the East are all very close. Sounds like a fun trip!

t-cart · April 10th, 2008, 00:04

Dont know if you thought about KPLK or not. It is right on the edge of Branson. About 3750 ft. long I believe. Springfield is about 35-40 miles from Branson.

FlyOrDie · April 10th, 2008, 03:30

OAK is a great airport, flew an A36 charter in there for the weekend and used Business Jet Center. That FBO was by far the nicest and most professional FBO I've ever dealt with.

Think about using Henderson Executive airport in Las Vegas area instead of International, less traffic and no landing fee, and its not far from the strip.

Sounds like a fun adventure.

Citationkid · April 14th, 2008, 16:51

Thanks for all the advice. I am sure I'll have plenty more questions as we get closer to taking the trip.

Alex.

Wolfy · April 14th, 2008, 17:00

Does his family live in Oakland or somewhere in the area? There are some other great airports around that might be closer.

EineBeBoP · April 14th, 2008, 17:36

Dunno what your looking for down in San Diego, but CRQ and RNM are nice little places to stop. Kinda away from the center of the city.
But if you wanna meet up for lunch/dinner, ill come down. I can probably get the girlfriend to drive us around with a little warning.

ladder360 · April 14th, 2008, 18:55

Also, for San Diego, MYF is a good GA field near downtown.

taildragger173 · April 14th, 2008, 19:16

You've gotta hit up HAF while out in CA. HAF is right on the coast near SFO. The 3-0 Cafe has some of the best breakfast I've had. If you get there later in the day, or dont feel like breakfast, park on the south side of the airport and walk thru the gate down to Barbara's Fishtrap.

Citationkid · April 28th, 2008, 17:35

Well, we've made it to SGF so far. We left last Sat afternoon and spent the night in Nashville, then came to SGF yesterday and are leaving for Sedona tomorrow and then to Vegas on Thurs. I still have one question, on the Boulder1 out of VGT is it just assumed you will fly the publish procedure unless you tell them you can't meet the climb gradient in which case you do the visual climb or is the visual climb the one that is normally used? And if you do the visual climb where do you fly while climbing, does tower tell you?

That plate can be seen here:

http://airnav.com/airport/vgt

Thanks,

Alex.

E6BAV8R · April 28th, 2008, 18:15

Quote:

I still have one question, on the Boulder1 out of VGT is it just assumed you will fly the publish procedure unless you tell them you can't meet the climb gradient in which case you do the visual climb or is the visual climb the one that is normally used? And if you do the visual climb where do you fly while climbing, does tower tell you?

If you do file the SID I am sure you can request the visual climb, in which case you need 2100-3, as it seems like the Visual Climb in the SID is one that seems to be often used as it is stated on the plate.

As for where to fly on the visual climb, if you look at the bottom of the chart under 'Route Descriptions' it states:

Quote:

For climb in visual conditions: cross North Las Vegas Airport at or above 4200 then via BLD VORTAC R-294 to BLD VORTAC.

I am assuming after BLD you then are going to get a 'proceed as filed' or a vector towards your route.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong as I have never flown there.

Also, are you even able to file a SID for which you don't meet a climb gradient for any of the runways? I am guessing this is an exception since it states the option of a visual climb?

Citationkid · April 28th, 2008, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

As for where to fly on the visual climb, if you look at the bottom of the chart under 'Route Descriptions' it states:

Quote:

For climb in visual conditions: cross North Las Vegas Airport at or above 4200 then via BLD VORTAC R-294 to BLD VORTAC.

I am assuming after BLD you then are going to get a 'proceed as filed' or a vector towards your route.

My question is where to go inbetween the time I take off and the time I reach 4200', that is not shown anywhere.

Quote:

Also, are you even able to file a SID for which you don't meet a climb gradient for any of the runways? I am guessing this is an exception since it states the option of a visual climb?

I think the point of the visual climb is so you do not need to meet the climb gradient. You are supposed to cross LAS (8 miles away) at 4000' if you fly the normal procedure. If you are unable to do 4000' at LAS, then you do the visual climb. That is what I think is the case, but I'd like someone to confirm it for me.

Alex.

meritflyer · April 29th, 2008, 00:42

I've flown out of KVGT a few dozen times and always get the Northtown Two Departure. They typically try to use 30L/R or 12R/L. I've never even intercepted the LAS R-313 before approach vectors you off the SID. As for your climb in visual conditions to cross the airport at or above 4200, expect departure to assign headings. They'll most likely vector you over the final approach path of LAS then clear you direct to Peach Springs (or a VORTAC along your route). Las Vegas approach wants you up and out of their hair quickly. You'll see.

meritflyer · April 29th, 2008, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citationkid

I think the point of the visual climb is so you do not need to meet the climb gradient. You are supposed to cross LAS (8 miles away) at 4000' if you fly the normal procedure. If you are unable to do 4000' at LAS, then you do the visual climb. That is what I think is the case, but I'd like someone to confirm it for me.

VCOA are solely for obstacle avoidance. You shouldn't have any problems though and I've flown 172, 182, and PA-44's out of there.

KLB · April 29th, 2008, 00:57

During the northtown departure. You usually will get direct LAS or radar vectors before you start making the turn back towards the VOR. VGT is really simple to fly in and out of. I found LAS to be even easier though. I have no idea what the ramp fees are like there though. The big issue with VGT is runway incursions, taxiway infraction, and the controllers can be really rude to you at times.

Oh and I forgot. OAK is really easy to get into also. It's very GA friendly. It's set up where the airlines have there side and the GA pilots have there side. I'm actually sitting PM reserve here all this week.

E6BAV8R · April 29th, 2008, 01:08

Quote:

My question is where to go inbetween the time I take off and the time I reach 4200', that is not shown anywhere.

Well the others answered it already, but I am assuming they will be vectoring you with your location so close to LAS.

Quote:

I think the point of the visual climb is so you do not need to meet the climb gradient. You are supposed to cross LAS (8 miles away) at 4000' if you fly the normal procedure. If you are unable to do 4000' at LAS, then you do the visual climb. That is what I think is the case, but I'd like someone to confirm it for me.

So what exactly, in general, is the point of a visual climb SID than? Why not just file direct to your first waypoint?

I know the purposes of a SID but a visual climb in one when you can just file direct to your first route waypoint seems much more appealing than flying a full SID VFR when it's not necessary.

KLB · April 29th, 2008, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

So what exactly, in general, is the point of a visual climb SID than? Why not just file direct to your first waypoint?

I believe it has to do with the traffic going in and out of LAS. Not only is the DP for obstacle clearance but one of the only ways out of there is to fly directly over the airport. The DP gives you the altitude needed to fly over the airport.

meritflyer · April 29th, 2008, 01:52

The visual climb is still a DP, it's established solely for obstacle clearance though.

meritflyer · April 29th, 2008, 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

I know the purposes of a SID but a visual climb in one when you can just file direct to your first route waypoint seems much more appealing than flying a full SID VFR when it's not necessary.

This should answer any questions. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...005-01-259.pdf