No Nav Lights On An Airliner?

[SeanD]

I was driving on Sunset here in Vegas tonight which is right next to the 25s and noticed a US Air (A320 I think) take off without nav or wing lights, only the beacon and strobe were on. Would the plane have to turn around and land or could it continue to its destination? I would think no nav lights is a no no. I watched it climb out until it made its turn north and the lights never went on.

[gator4798]

For VFR Day only anti Collision (Beacon / strobe) are required. Dont know about IFR airliners.


At night Nav are required of course.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by SeanD

I was driving on Sunset here in Vegas tonight which is right next to the 25s and noticed a US Air (A320 I think) take off without nav or wing lights, only the beacon and strobe were on. Would the plane have to turn around and land or could it continue to its destination? I would think no nav lights is a no no. I watched it climb out until it made its turn north and the lights never went on.

They must have "quit working in flight."

[flyinkibblez]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

They must have "quit working in flight."

i hate it when that happens

was it day or night when you saw the plane take off??

[Doug Taylor]

Depends on what the MEL said. I'll have a peek at the 767 MEL later on this morning and see if there's any relief.

However, aircraft types and airlines differ so you never know either way!

[SeanD]

It was at night. They were off during its TO roll also.

[kellwolf]

Ours you have to have at least one working nav on each side. We've got two on the left, two on the right and two on the tail. I FREQUENTLY see nav lights MEL'ed here, but if both lights are out, at least one of 'em has to be fixed.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

They must have "quit working in flight."

Originally Posted by flyinkibblez

i hate it when that happens

Same here.

-mini

[Cessnaflyer]

Originally Posted by gator4798

For VFR Day only anti Collision (Beacon / strobe) are required. Dont know about IFR airliners.


At night Nav are required of course.

Actually any day flights, lights are not required.

§ 91.209 Aircraft lights.

No person may:
(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during the period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance of 3 statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the horizon)—
(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;
(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a night flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft—
(i) Is clearly illuminated;
(ii) Has lighted position lights; or
(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;
(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft—
(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or
(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels; or
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

[SoCalAprch]

On the E145 there are two sets and if one is out there is a maintenance panel where they can switch it to the backup set. The nav light switch is just a dust collector meaning we never turn it off. Like said before they must have burnt out while pushing back or taxing. They are required as far as I know.

[wheelsup]

I remember reading something on Eagle about them turning the nav lights off during the day, it was supposed to save a boatload of money.

[kellwolf]

Part 91 regs are great and all, especially if you're doing a ferry or a MX flight. However, airliners work under different rules. For example, I flew a plane a couple of weeks ago without a compass card. Why? We had an MEL that allowed us to do so. Can't do that under Part 91.

[Cessnaflyer]

Well yeah MELs in the 121 world give you a bit more leeway

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

They must have "quit working in flight."

I'm going with "somebody bumped a switch."

[tonyw]

"It definitely was working during preflight. Definitely."

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Part 91 regs are great and all, especially if you're doing a ferry or a MX flight. However, airliners work under different rules. For example, I flew a plane a couple of weeks ago without a compass card. Why? We had an MEL that allowed us to do so. Can't do that under Part 91.

I was under the impression that you could use a MEL under part 91 if its published by the manufacturer and you get approval from the FAA. Thats what I told my students anyway!

[casey]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

I was under the impression that you could use a MEL under part 91 if its published by the manufacturer and you get approval from the FAA. Thats what I told my students anyway!

yes, the MEL is tied to the airplane, not the regs its operated under.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

I was under the impression that you could use a MEL under part 91 if its published by the manufacturer and you get approval from the FAA. Thats what I told my students anyway!

True, if it's for the specific plane. It's rare to see MELs in a flight school setting. At least, that was my experience. Now, seeing broken stuff with an "inop" sticker.....that wasn't so rare.

[spbrian]

Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer

Actually any day flights, lights are not required.

Little bit wrong there, it's hidden in the regulation and requires some careful reading.

§ 91.209 Aircraft lights.

No person may:
(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during the period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance of 3 statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the horizon)—
(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;
(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a night flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft—
(i) Is clearly illuminated;
(ii) Has lighted position lights; or
(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;
(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft—
(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or
(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels; or
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

You have to read the rule like this, ever time you see a (a) or (b) you have to take the no person may and add it again...

so for the first part it's No person may, (a) during the period from sunset to sunrise do all of these things including (1), (2) and (i), (ii), etc.... After that stuff is over you get to (b) so add in again..

No person may: (b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

So if your airplane is equipped with beacon or strobes anytime the aircraft is operated those lights have to be on.

[crashmbern]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I remember reading something on Eagle about them turning the nav lights off during the day, it was supposed to save a boatload of money.

yea we are suppose to keep the nav lights off during the day, and not to use the logo light as well. Management said it save about $1 million/year.

[slushie]

Sean, they have been doing contract work for Janet.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by crashmbern

yea we are suppose to keep the nav lights off during the day, and not to use the logo light as well. Management said it save about $1 million/year.

Interesting...do you know what makes up the bulk of the cost savings? Is it simply not having to replace bulbs as often? That's a pretty significant amount of money.

[Cessnaflyer]

Originally Posted by spbrian

Little bit wrong there, it's hidden in the regulation and requires some careful reading.



You have to read the rule like this, ever time you see a (a) or (b) you have to take the no person may and add it again...

so for the first part it's No person may, (a) during the period from sunset to sunrise do all of these things including (1), (2) and (i), (ii), etc.... After that stuff is over you get to (b) so add in again..

No person may: (b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

So if your airplane is equipped with beacon or strobes anytime the aircraft is operated those lights have to be on.

And if your aircraft is not equipped or they are burned out or you are trying to save money, then they are not required like I said I haven't gone through all of part 23 but I don't think there are any day time lighting requirements in that part.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer

you are trying to save money, then they are not required like I said

I don't see an exemption for "trying to save money."

[spbrian]

Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer

And if your aircraft is not equipped or they are burned out or you are trying to save money, then they are not required like I said I haven't gone through all of part 23 but I don't think there are any day time lighting requirements in that part.

If your aircraft is not equiped then no, of course you don't need to have any anti collision beacon or strobe lights on. But because they are burned out or you are trying to "save money" doesn't give you a reason to not run ANTI COLLISION lights, nav lights yes.


Sec. 91.205 - Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.
(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear. (11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made.

(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, "shore" means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.
(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older.
(14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness for each front seat. The shoulder harness must be designed to protect the occupant from serious head injury when the occupant experiences the ultimate inertia forces specified in §23.561(b)(2) of this chapter. Each shoulder harness installed at a flight crewmember station must permit the crewmember, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph --
(i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and
(ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flight crewmember station or any seat located alongside such a seat.
(15) An emergency locator transmitter, if required by §91.207.
(16) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category airplanes with a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 9 or less, manufactured after December 12, 1986, a shoulder harness for --
(i) Each front seat that meets the requirements of §23.785 (g) and (h) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985;
(ii) Each additional seat that meets the requirements of §23.785(g) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985. (17) For rotorcraft manufactured after September 16, 1992, a shoulder harness for each seat that meets the requirements of §27.2 or §29.2 of this chapter in effect on September 16, 1991.