Logging PACTD Time

[Pietrantonio]

Alright, my previous instructor whom I just left, logged my simulator time as:

# of inst. app. --> 02
Simulated Instrument --> 0.4
Ground trainer --> 0.4
Dual Recieved --> 0.4

Now, I just spent time on the simulator with my new instructor, and he logged my time in the logbook as:

Ground Trainer --> 2.0

This is the only catagory he filled out.

There seems to be a big difference from what the two instructors wrote in my logbook, so I'm looking to get an answer as to which is correct, or if both are wrong, etc... Thanks for the help!

[Micaoct]

My instructor just logs Ground Trainer and number of Instrument Approaches.

[Goodspeed]

Originally Posted by Pietrantonio

Alright, my previous instructor whom I just left, logged my simulator time as:

# of inst. app. --> 02 GOOD
Simulated Instrument --> 0.4 NO
Ground trainer --> 0.4 GOOD
Dual Recieved --> 0.4 NO

Now, I just spent time on the simulator with my new instructor, and he logged my time in the logbook as:

Ground Trainer --> 2.0

This is the only catagory he filled out.

There seems to be a big difference from what the two instructors wrote in my logbook, so I'm looking to get an answer as to which is correct, or if both are wrong, etc... Thanks for the help!

[brett529]

Why not log it as simulated instrument? What if the sim time is needed to complete the aeronautical experience requirements for an instrument rating?

[DE727UPS]

I wouldn't log it as simulated instrument as that's assumed to be flight time in a real airplane. It's most certainly dual received (training time is the new word for that) and I'd log it as such.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

61.51:

• Training time can be in an aircraft or FTD. (Dual received)
• Instrument time can be in an aircraft or FTD. (Simulated instrument)

If you are logging the time in order to fulfill requirements to achieve an instrument rating, this is how the FAR wants you to log it.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

61.51:

• Training time can be in an aircraft or FTD. (Dual received)
• Instrument time can be in an aircraft or FTD. (Simulated instrument)

If you are logging the time in order to fulfill requirements to achieve an instrument rating, this is how the FAR wants you to log it.

Ah, but PCATD != (does not equal) FTD.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by aloft

Ah, but PCATD != (does not equal) FTD.

That's right. PCATD time, so far, is not FTD or sim time. It's not flight time. It's not even really simulated instrument time.

This is a FAQ that I've been working on:

The PCATD is a different creature. It is neither a "flight simulator" not a "flight training device". It falls under 61.4(c) which authorizes the FAA to approve devices other than simulators and FTDs.

What a PCATD can be used for and what can be logged is the subject of AC 61-126 - Qualification And Approval Of Personal Computer-Based Aviation Training Devices. In general, they can be used to =partially substitute= for the requirements for a certificate or rating that can be done in a flight simulator or FTD. For example,

==============================
7. ACCEPTABILITY OF PCATD's FOR USE UNDER PART 61
a. To be acceptable for use in part 61, a PCATD must:
(1) Be capable of providing training in all elements for which it will be used. Those elements should be specified in a curriculum.
(2) Meet the description and criteria established in this AC.
b. The PCATD should be used in a curriculum which will provide for:
(1) A scope and content which should be in general compliance with part 141.
(2) Not more than 10 hours of flight instruction in a PCATD in lieu of 10 of the 20 hours of flight instruction allowed for a flight simulator or FTD. The 20-hour allowance for a flight simulator or an FTD and the 10-hour allowance for PCATD's are not additive. If a PCATD is used for the maximum of 10 hours, that 10 hours shall be a part of the 20-hour maximum allowance for a flight simulator or flight training device.
(3) Instructional materials for flight events.
(4) An outline of stage (phase) checks and criterion levels of performance.
==============================

What this mess means is that if you use a PCATD toward your instrument rating, it counts =only= toward the requirements for the instrument rating, but nothing else.

So, I think that time in a PCATD should be logged in its own column. But there's probably no problem with logging in in a sim/FTD/ground trainer column so long as you understand that it may have to be subtracted out for certain things. For example, FTD and sim time would count as total "pilot time" toward the ATP requirements; those PCATD session do not.

So I guess I'm closer to your second instructor than your first.

[brett529]

61.51
(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

As long as the FTD or simulator is approved you can log it as instrument and as long as you have an instructor present you can log it as dual received.

[Pietrantonio]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

That's right. PCATD time, so far, is not FTD or sim time. It's not flight time. It's not even really simulated instrument time.

This is a FAQ that I've been working on:

The PCATD is a different creature. It is neither a "flight simulator" not a "flight training device". It falls under 61.4(c) which authorizes the FAA to approve devices other than simulators and FTDs.

What a PCATD can be used for and what can be logged is the subject of AC 61-126 - Qualification And Approval Of Personal Computer-Based Aviation Training Devices. In general, they can be used to =partially substitute= for the requirements for a certificate or rating that can be done in a flight simulator or FTD. For example,

==============================
7. ACCEPTABILITY OF PCATD's FOR USE UNDER PART 61
a. To be acceptable for use in part 61, a PCATD must:
(1) Be capable of providing training in all elements for which it will be used. Those elements should be specified in a curriculum.
(2) Meet the description and criteria established in this AC.
b. The PCATD should be used in a curriculum which will provide for:
(1) A scope and content which should be in general compliance with part 141.
(2) Not more than 10 hours of flight instruction in a PCATD in lieu of 10 of the 20 hours of flight instruction allowed for a flight simulator or FTD. The 20-hour allowance for a flight simulator or an FTD and the 10-hour allowance for PCATD's are not additive. If a PCATD is used for the maximum of 10 hours, that 10 hours shall be a part of the 20-hour maximum allowance for a flight simulator or flight training device.
(3) Instructional materials for flight events.
(4) An outline of stage (phase) checks and criterion levels of performance.
==============================

What this mess means is that if you use a PCATD toward your instrument rating, it counts =only= toward the requirements for the instrument rating, but nothing else.

So, I think that time in a PCATD should be logged in its own column. But there's probably no problem with logging in in a sim/FTD/ground trainer column so long as you understand that it may have to be subtracted out for certain things. For example, FTD and sim time would count as total "pilot time" toward the ATP requirements; those PCATD session do not.

So I guess I'm closer to your second instructor than your first.

Now if I'm understanding this correctly, I can log # of approaches, and ground trainer (PACTD)? I was assuming that dual recieved would be appropriate just because he is still providing instruction.?

[brett529]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

That's right. PCATD time, so far, is not FTD or sim time. It's not flight time. It's not even really simulated instrument time.

This is a FAQ that I've been working on:

The PCATD is a different creature. It is neither a "flight simulator" not a "flight training device". It falls under 61.4(c) which authorizes the FAA to approve devices other than simulators and FTDs.

Ahhh I see. I was wondering how you find out which devices are "approved."

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by brett529

Ahhh I see. I was wondering how you find out which devices are "approved."

The FAA issues a letter for every approved Sim, FTD, PCATD, whatever that tells you what its authorized uses are. It should be posted in the room where the sim is kept.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Originally Posted by aloft

Ah, but PCATD != (does not equal) FTD.

Oh snap! Good example of a Tom Glancy. Got wrapped up in the logging and overlooked the obvious.... PCATD.