Delta to cut jobs

[SoCalAprch]

You proved me wrong, Delta should raise prices and that will fix everything. You are right that there are tons of things that go into making an airline profitable. But getting people on your planes is the only source of income for an airline. Raising prices isn't the fix all for the industry and its only gonna hurt it with this economy.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

You proved me wrong, Delta should raise prices and that will fix everything. You are right that there are tons of things that go into making an airline profitable. But getting people on your planes is the only source of income for an airline. Raising prices isn't the fix all for the industry and its only gonna hurt it with this economy.

No one is saying that simply raising fares will fix all the problems. That's just one element of a fix. What will do absolutely no good and actually make things worse is trying to extract more from labor. Raise prices, add fuel surcharges, improve the product, increase fleet utilization, etc... All of it contributes to a better operation. Pissed off employees that have taken 40% paycuts and endured furloughs combined with aircraft utilization rates of 40-60% of the day and rock-bottom fares will simply not help, no matter how many dimwitted MBAs you can find that will tell you it will.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Kristie

what? 2 weeks? a month... or not even?

Were you responding to me?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

Hell yeah, I love the XM radio on you guys. Again, when given the choice of jumpseating on Air Tranny or Delta, I pick Air Tran every time. Less eye rolls from the gate agent when you go to list for the jumpseat, crew usually seems more pleasant and happy to see you, better overall experience.

Agree on the labor cost argument too. You don't see gas stations going "damn, gas is expensive. Lets keep prices the same and make everybody take a paycut so we can survive." Nope, the customer wants a product, they should be the ones paying for it.

Oh no! The WORLD IS ENDING! That makes THREE!!

[tonyw]

I look at the way the airlines run things as similar to what the dot coms did back in the day. They were so desperate to get customers they did stupid things, such as offer free shipping on low margin and heavy weight things such as pet food.

That's what the airlines are doing now. They're so desperate to fill every single seat that they sell those seats at money losing prices.

You don't care about non-profitable customers. Let some other joker deal with them.

The only customers any business should care about are profitable ones.

As for asking labor to take more cuts, the best way to make sure your customers are pissed off is to piss off your employees. Treat your employees well, and they'll work hard for you.

Treat them like crap and they won't lift a finger beyond what they need to do in order to keep from getting fired.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Oh no! The WORLD IS ENDING! That makes THREE!!

how's training going? They put you in a hotel or are you just commuting from home?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

how's training going? They put you in a hotel or are you just commuting from home?

Good so far man. I've got the limitations and Immediate Action Items down pretty good. Doing a general systems read over the next few days.

I'm up in a hotel. I've been out of Indoc for about a week and a half now, head back for systems next Monday. I'll be back at the hotel Monday evening, through to whenever I get another >2 day break.

[PCL_128]

Hotel? Did I miss something? Don't you live down here?

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Good so far man. I've got the limitations and Immediate Action Items down pretty good. Doing a general systems read over the next few days.

I'm up in a hotel. I've been out of Indoc for about a week and a half now, head back for systems next Monday. I'll be back at the hotel Monday evening, through to whenever I get another >2 day break.

Good to hear. You in the LQ? All I have to do is finish one more leg and I'll be done IOE. Then I get the boot out of here and will be moving down to PTC. We'll have to have another JC meet up some time.

[surreal1221]

PTC huh?

Rock on man. Good choice. Apartment or house? No, they have me up in the Wellesley Inn off of Virginia Ave.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Hotel? Did I miss something? Don't you live down here?

Nah man, you didn't miss anything. Company has all new hire trainees a paid hotel room for 90 days (or their duration of training).

I stay in the hotel while I'm in class, otherwise driving back and forth 5 days a week would kill us on gas.

Right now I'm at our house

[PCL_128]

Ahhh, gotcha. If you're staying on Virginia Ave, some of us should get together at Spondivits when you've got a chance free from studying.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

PTC huh?

Rock on man. Good choice. Apartment or house? No, they have me up in the Wellesley Inn off of Virginia Ave.



Nah man, you didn't miss anything. Company has all new hire trainees a paid hotel room for 90 days (or their duration of training).

I stay in the hotel while I'm in class, otherwise driving back and forth 5 days a week would kill us on gas.

Right now I'm at our house

Renting a room in a house down there. Somebody in my class's dad flies for delta and uses it as a crashpad. Its a pretty damn good deal so I'm pretty happy. That being said I'm riding this hotel for as long as possible. They say 90 days but its relaly till you're done IOE.

[flyingmaniac]

You know what, I'm at LQ right now also. Week two Systems. Pretty funny how close everyone is.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Hotel? Did I miss something? Don't you live down here?

Actually, I took PCL up on their hotel room when I was in ground school despite the fact that my parents lived 15 minutes from the CEC. My roommate was my sim partner, so we would do flows, call outs and checklists every night before going to sleep, I was surrounded by study groups, and it was just a more intense study environment. Now, when it came time to go to the sims, I DID move from the hotel to my parents house. By that time, we had the flows, call outs and profiles down as best we could, you can't really "study" for the sim and my parents are 5 minutes from FSI.

Another was SWA is profitable is they do a LOT more with less. For example, I can look out on any given day and see almost TWICE as many people on the ramp working a 50 seat RJ as we had working a 737 in MCO. In an efficient op, you could turn an RJ is 20 minutes with three rampers. One in the bin, one at the bottom of the belt and one on a tug. The guys at the gate have the bag carts, belt loader, etc set up BEFORE the plane gets there. The guy on the tug brings the outbound bags from the terminal. Plane comes in: one guy marshalls, the other two wing walk. Marshaller chocks the nose, the other two chock the mains and pull up the belt loader. Tug man drives over an empty bag cart attached to the cart with outbound bags. One guy in the bin off loading, one guy tossing bags into the empty cart. After all the bags are downloaded, the tug driver unhooks the outbound bags and drives the downloaded bags to the terminal. The other two load the bags, then they can stand around and wait for the gate check bags and load those. Once that's done, one guy mans the pushback and the other guy wing walks. If you can get away with one wing walker (SWA does, BTW), you're good. If you need two, the tug driver comes back after dropping the bags.

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by Kristie

I just wonder how DAL and NWA can even be talking merger if they're having to let people go already????

i mean doesn't that mean that DAL doesn't have the money to merge??

Actually, this goes along fine with the merger plan. The way they come out ahead in the merger is by eliminating duplicated routes and duplicated functions of management. Getting rid of folks now just gets a headstart on the game.

[cre8flyer]

Anyone know exactly what the buyout offer says? What exactly is the company offering to entice people to exit?

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

Were you responding to me?

yes sir!

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by cre8flyer

Anyone know exactly what the buyout offer says? What exactly is the company offering to entice people to exit?

I dunno. It's not being offered to pilots because the talking heads need more pilots because aircraft deliveries will continue.

We've won a major grievance against the companies manning formula plus receiving 777LR's and the -700s.

Remember, the 777LR's are flying places that require a buttload of manning.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Another was SWA is profitable is they do a LOT more with less. For example, I can look out on any given day and see almost TWICE as many people on the ramp working a 50 seat RJ as we had working a 737 in MCO. In an efficient op, you could turn an RJ is 20 minutes with three rampers. One in the bin, one at the bottom of the belt and one on a tug. The guys at the gate have the bag carts, belt loader, etc set up BEFORE the plane gets there. The guy on the tug brings the outbound bags from the terminal. Plane comes in: one guy marshalls, the other two wing walk. Marshaller chocks the nose, the other two chock the mains and pull up the belt loader. Tug man drives over an empty bag cart attached to the cart with outbound bags. One guy in the bin off loading, one guy tossing bags into the empty cart. After all the bags are downloaded, the tug driver unhooks the outbound bags and drives the downloaded bags to the terminal. The other two load the bags, then they can stand around and wait for the gate check bags and load those. Once that's done, one guy mans the pushback and the other guy wing walks. If you can get away with one wing walker (SWA does, BTW), you're good. If you need two, the tug driver comes back after dropping the bags.

This is what Im saying. Utilizing what you have is what is important.

PCL I don't see management as labor. Labor in my opinion are the rampers, dispatchers, pilots, FAs, etc. Management is not labor they are management. I have been saying in every post that middle management needs to be trimmed. Don't turn this around to make it sound like I think we should give concessions and that we should take it on the chin. It is nice that we can employee all these morons that make our lives a living hell and run the airlines into the ground with their 6 figure salaries. You are saying that it is fine that these people are making tons of money to sit there in an office and get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to tell someone what to do who in turn just tells another person what to do. I never have once said that they need to pay less to or get rid of pilots or FAs or even rampers for that matter.

Southwest: LAX-MDW 289.50
Delta: LAX-ATL-MDW 292.00

They are saying a $50 increase per seat and I just (opinion here so don't tear my head off PCL) don't think that will make themselves marketable and though it may be a quick fix for a couple months the long term problem lies in the way that these companys are paying management. If people can't afford to pay for seats they won't. It doesn't matter for us pilots how much you want your management to make because if they increase prices and reduce the amount of flying the pilot group is going to suffer.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Remember, the 777LR's are flying places that require a buttload of manning.

Just went to an NPA meeting this afternoon. According to what the DALPA guys told our reps when they were up in Herndon for some training, each Delta 777 requires 67 new pilots. (for those not familiar with normal manning formulas, a typical small narrow-body like a DC-9 or 737 usually requires about 12 pilots per plane)

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

PCL I don't see management as labor. Labor in my opinion are the rampers, dispatchers, pilots, FAs, etc. Management is not labor they are management. I have been saying in every post that middle management needs to be trimmed. Don't turn this around to make it sound like I think we should give concessions and that we should take it on the chin. It is nice that we can employee all these morons that make our lives a living hell and run the airlines into the ground with their 6 figure salaries.

Agreed, but Delta isn't just looking to trim "management." They are talking about lower level office staff and other regular Joes. A secretary doesn't make a six-figure salary and isn't management.

You are saying that it is fine that these people are making tons of money to sit there in an office and get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to tell someone what to do who in turn just tells another person what to do. I never have once said that they need to pay less to or get rid of pilots or FAs or even rampers for that matter.

Preaching to the choir, my friend. Kell can probably tell you just how anti-management I am. I was legendary at PCL for having a pure hatred for these upper-management people.

They are saying a $50 increase per seat and I just (opinion here so don't tear my head off PCL) don't think that will make themselves marketable and though it may be a quick fix for a couple months the long term problem lies in the way that these companys are paying management.

I don't think a $50 increase per seat is necessary at all, at least not on most flights. Our company has told investors that we need an increase of 1% RASM for each $2.50 increase in the price of crude to maintain current profit margins. Oil has gone from $90/bbl to about $105/bbl, so that's about a 6% increase in RASM that we need to maintain margins. I'd imagine that DAL has similar figures, depending on how much they've hedged. Increasing RASM by 6% doesn't require anything approaching a $50 fare increase on most tickets.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Agreed, but Delta isn't just looking to trim "management." They are talking about lower level office staff and other regular Joes. A secretary doesn't make a six-figure salary and isn't management.



Preaching to the choir, my friend. Kell can probably tell you just how anti-management I am. I was legendary at PCL for having a pure hatred for these upper-management people.



I don't think a $50 increase per seat is necessary at all, at least not on most flights. Our company has told investors that we need an increase of 1% RASM for each $2.50 increase in the price of crude to maintain current profit margins. Oil has gone from $90/bbl to about $105/bbl, so that's about a 6% increase in RASM that we need to maintain margins. I'd imagine that DAL has similar figures, depending on how much they've hedged. Increasing RASM by 6% doesn't require anything approaching a $50 fare increase on most tickets.

Well then we are agreeing for the most part. I don't think "LABOR" shoud give anything nor do I think that prices should go up too much. Yeah a 6% increase isn't that big of a deal. But there are articles Im reading saying that airlines are going to increase tickets by 50 bucks. Its just doesn't make sense to me unless everyone does it. If everyone does then by all means hike em up...

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Just went to an NPA meeting this afternoon. According to what the DALPA guys told our reps when they were up in Herndon for some training, each Delta 777 requires 67 new pilots. (for those not familiar with normal manning formulas, a typical small narrow-body like a DC-9 or 737 usually requires about 12 pilots per plane)

That's pretty much it.

You can get a crapload of small aircraft and it doesn't do jack for movement. But if you get a gang of 777's, the party has started... Better spin the disco ball.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

But there are articles Im reading saying that airlines are going to increase tickets by 50 bucks. Its just doesn't make sense to me unless everyone does it. If everyone does then by all means hike em up...

The $50 thing you saw was probably in reference to UAL. They're planning on raising fares up to $50. That big of an increase is only happening on select trans-con fares, I believe. Much smaller increases are being instituted on most routes. I think they gave a range of $10-$50 increases, depending on the flight. I think you'll also see the other carriers match the prices. Everyone is hurting with fuel costs, and there seems to be some pricing power, despite the slowing economy. Our load factors are still holding steady at just under 90%. This Feb was a record month for us.

[jml2992]

Originally Posted by GalaxyIFE

What? No way...freight REALLY REALLY REALLY sucks. Run away...run away. All you noobs FIGHT for the RJ, stay away from those HORRIBLE 135 outfits, they will KILL YOU!!! DON'T EVEN consider freight...NO NO NO.

Yes, here. I don't want these SJS dudes taking a good 135 gig (that I would love to do) when ASA's mins go up to 2500TT!!!

Whatever dude... 135 is where it's at. I am planning on heading back in a couple of hundred hours. I took the first one because I didn't know better and now I'm in love with an ugly airplane that only 500 people know how to fly but I could be spoiled and convinced to fly an old, leaky Metroliner or a 1900. Let the suckers wear the stripes and their i-pods. I look forward to the days that I don't have to get a regular haircut and I can stay home all day with my kiddo. Leave for work after the evening commute and make it home in time for a cup of coffee and pancakes with the Mrs.