Delta to Boeing: 777-200LR JFK/ATL-SYD nonstop please?

[Nick]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...777-200lr.html

Hauenstein, who is the architect of Delta's plan to become a global carrier from its Atlanta and New York Kennedy hubs, says that the carrier wants a 777 that can "reach Australia [non-stop] from our US East Coast hubs".

Speaking to Flight International's sister publication Airline Business during the delivery flight of Delta's first 777-200LR, Hauenstein said that the aircraft could be fitted with additional fuel capacity to achieve this. He added that it might be possible to tweak its General Electric GE 90-110B1 engines.

They replace a shorter-range 777-200ER model, which faces weight restrictions on the route. The -200LR's greater payload will enable it to carry a full load of cargo on the route, which Hauenstein says will add as much as $10 million a year in revenue.

That's $27,000 a day!

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Wow thats preety cool/crazy, I think they could pull it off, but gosh thats like a 22 hour flight

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

Wow thats preety cool/crazy, I think they could pull it off, but gosh thats like a 22 hour flight

It took us 20 the last time I went to Sydney, that was from the west coast and does not include stopover time in KLAX or PHNL

[Nick]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

It took us 20 the last time I went to Sydney, that was from the west coast and does not include stopover time in KLAX or PHNL

It does not take anywhere close to 20 hours from the west coast to Sydney nonstop. That's two hours longer than the longest flight in the world.

I must be misinterpreting your stopover sentence. ?

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by Nick

It does not take anywhere close to 20 hours from the west coast to Sydney nonstop. That's two hours longer than the longest flight in the world.

I must be misinterpreting your stopover sentence. ?

20 total hours, and it was back in the 80's, I don't even know what we were flying.

2 hours from Portland to Los Angeles
6 hours from LAX to Honolulu
10 hours from Honolulu to Auckland
2 hours from Auckland to Sydney

[Nick]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

20 total hours, and it was back in the 80's, I don't even know what we were flying.

2 hours from Portland to Las Angeles
6 hours from LAX to Honolulu
10 hours from Honolulu to Auckland
2 hours from Auckland to Sydney

Oh that makes sense. I read it as you didn't include stops in the 20 hours.

* * *

Great circle mapper shows:
LAX-SYD 7488 nm
ATL-SYD 9285 nm
JFK-SYD 9950 nm

ATL-SYD is within the range of 9450 nm that the article gives as the range of the LR. I wonder what kind of restrictions there would be if ATL-SYD was tried right now with it.

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by Nick

Great circle mapper shows:
LAX-SYD 7488 nm
ATL-SYD 9285 nm
JFK-SYD 9950 nm

Those're statute mile great-circle distances. Even shorter in nautical miles.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Minuteman

Those're statute mile great-circle distances. Even shorter in nautical miles.

Wow I don't know why I didn't see that, and I thought great circle mapper gave the miles in nautical by default by at a second glance, apparently not.

So yes, take 15% off those numbers.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by Nick

Great circle mapper shows:
LAX-SYD 7488 nm
ATL-SYD 9285 nm
JFK-SYD 9950 nm

ATL-SYD is within the range of 9450 nm that the article gives as the range of the LR. I wonder what kind of restrictions there would be if ATL-SYD was tried right now with it.

Just had this conversation today with my next door neighbor who works in Revenue Management for Southernjets. According to him, the airplane may be able to make it based on Boeing numbers, but Southernjets adds their own distance "fudge factor" ,(nice technical term there,) which drops the leg distance for a given airframe when they plan routes. Did I mention he's good with numbers?

[v1valarob]

So how many crews would that be on one flight? 3 crews for the actual flight and 3 crews for the trip back the next day? Dayyyyuummmmmmmm

-Rob

[av8sean]

Seems most ULH still have 1 captain, and several type-rated FO's.

[Doug Taylor]

Don't forget ETOPS requirements when looking at distances. That could make a significant difference.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

20 total hours, and it was back in the 80's, I don't even know what we were flying.

2 hours from Portland to Los Angeles
6 hours from LAX to Honolulu
10 hours from Honolulu to Auckland
2 hours from Auckland to Sydney

Last time I flew direct from SFO to SYD on a 747, it took us about 15 1/2 hours. Another flight from LAX to AKL on a 74 took 13 1/2 hours. My upcoming trip to Cape Town, South Africa is going to take about 28 hours of actual flying time. My butt already hurts just thinking about it!

[typhoonpilot]

Without the benefit of flight planning software I did some rough calculations on flight time and fuel burns for no wind flight on both routes. Here are the answers:

Atlanta - Sydney is 8064 nautical miles. In the 777-200LR it would be right at 17 hours burning around 129,000 kilograms of fuel.

JFK - SYD is actually longer at 8628 nautical miles. It would take closer to 18 hours with a fuel burn of 137,000 kilograms off fuel.

The key is the seasonal average winds which I have no idea of on those routes. I pulled up yesterday's non-stop Dubai-Houston as an example. That flight is 7341 nautical miles. It had an average headwind of 33 knots which made the flight time 16:40 with fuel burn of 126,874 kilos. The Sao Paulo flight at 6935 nautical miles had an average headwind of 10 knots so it took only 14:31.

The 777-200LR can carry 134,000 kilos of fuel with a full payload. So anything over about 17 hours starts becoming less profitable as payload needs to be sacrificed in order to carry the fuel for the flight.

From a crew stand point we do our Ultra Long Haul trips with 2 Captains and 2 First Officers. Most majors in the USA use one Captain with three First Officers.


Typhoonpilot

[Doug Taylor]

ULH's here at Southernjets are 2 CA's and 2 FO's as well.

[E_Dawg]

As I remember, interestingly SFO-SYD and LAX-SYD take about the same amount of time.


Some of those routes are pretty interesting to look at on a map. The US to Hong Kong is over the north pole, and the US to Sydney makes a giant S, since the 'arc' inverts south of the equator.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

As I remember, interestingly SFO-SYD and LAX-SYD take about the same amount of time.


Some of those routes are pretty interesting to look at on a map. The US to Hong Kong is over the north pole, and the US to Sydney makes a giant S, since the 'arc' inverts south of the equator.

Yes, SFO is actually shorter by about 55 NM than from LAX!




EWR-SIN, EWR-HKG

The Singapore flight out of EWR often goes as far south as Newfoundland.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

Last time I flew direct from SFO to SYD on a 747, it took us about 15 1/2 hours. Another flight from LAX to AKL on a 74 took 13 1/2 hours. My upcoming trip to Cape Town, South Africa is going to take about 28 hours of actual flying time. My butt already hurts just thinking about it!

I think I was wrong about my actual flying time to Cape Town, SA. According to my documents, the outbound leg from JFK to Jo'Burg has a flight time of 17:25 and the return flight from Jo'burg to JFK is listed at 18:35. Please tell me that time includes the re-fueling ground stop in Dakar!...still, adding my flight from SFO to JFK, and Jo'burg to Cape Town, if it's 26 hours of actual flying time, my butt will be sore! Anesthesia please!

[WestIndian425]

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

I think I was wrong about my actual flying time to Cape Town, SA. According to my documents, the outbound leg from JFK to Jo'Burg has a flight time of 17:25 and the return flight from Jo'burg to JFK is listed at 18:35. Please tell me that time includes the re-fueling ground stop in Dakar!...still, adding my flight from SFO to JFK, and Jo'burg to Cape Town, if it's 26 hours of actual flying time, my butt will be sore! Anesthesia please!

Which airline? SAA?

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by WestIndian425

Which airline? SAA?

Yep!...except for the SFO to JFK and return leg, I'm on United for that, but once I leave JFK, it's all SAA until I return back to JFK.

I don't want my DAL friends to get mad at me for not flying DAL, I had no choice, it's business!

[rjmore]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

ULH's here at Southernjets are 2 CA's and 2 FO's as well.

That's cool, at CX we use one CA, two FO, and an SO. One or both of the FOs is a "Relief Commander" and takes on the role of a cheap CA basically.

[E_Dawg]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

ULH's here at Southernjets are 2 CA's and 2 FO's as well.

What's the cutoff for a ULH