Future regional hiring

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

Just as an outsider looking in, it does seem that things are a bit slower to start than this time last year, but there are still plenty of regionals hiring.

Speaking from 33 years of experience in this economy, downturns come and downturns go. Are we headed for a downturn? Of course. We are already there. It will pass. My prediction is that we will be headed in the opposite direction this time next year, when the political front has stabilized. A downturn is fairly common with an election year anyway. Add-in a money sucking stagnated war front, and it is inevitable.

The Age 65 rule has only postponed things. Many have argued on here that it may not be postponing them as much as one would think either; Doug shared the top of his seniority list and showed those out on medical before age 60. Also, alot of these folks planned on getting out at 60, even with the furloughs and pay cuts, so they probably still will. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

The nail in the coffin this year, to me, would be the mergers of major airlines, which seem to be coming quickly. It seems to me that the consolidations will be the bane of aspiring wannabes like myself way before the rest of the factors mentioned. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

I am a wet commercial licensed pilot who just quit his cushy desk job to make a 1/3rd of his original pay(HOPEFULLY!) at a regional. That makes me nervous. If I can get in a regional right now at 400 hours, heck 300, it is awful tempting. I'd rather be there than sitting on the sidelines while the minimums go way up and hiring slows to a crawl, as is being prophesized here. Do I care if some of you take offense to that? I could give a flying you know whatskie. Some of you talked me out of taking a large loan that would already have me in an airline with probably a year to go to upgrade. So don't talk to me about how your way is the right way. I am sick of it. Your way worked for you. It is nice to share, but stop coming on here and condemning those that go another route. As long as they are not affecting your job by things such as PFJ.

The funny part of all this? Coming on here and foretelling of the end of this hiring spree is only going to make people like me speed our plans up. Think about it: If things are indeed slowing down, then I need to speed my plans up to get a chair, any chair, before the music stops. So instead of taking my time, getting some experience instructing, getting the hours needed to get on with a choice regional, I am going to bumrush the door to get in somewhere rather than nowhere.

But you're not the person I'm talking with. You have a degree from an ivy league university, you have other skills, you've got work experience and military experience. If this all goes to pot, you can pay your bills. The person I'm talking with is...

-Young, under 25
-No college
-No real hours
-No CFI
-No work experience
-No other skill set
-No interests outside aviation (that one scares the pants off me right there)

You are in fact the polar opposite of that. This thread had NOTHING to do with taking a job as soon as you can, it had to do with what happens you lose that job and the market is drying up, which is what I think is happening right now.

And just as further proof that things can go south fast, the hedge fund that bought a huge chunk of us and said, "We want you to kill branded" now has managed to get a seat on our board.

Strap in.

[LoadMasterC141]

Oh



I would certainly agree that ANYONE coming into this business should have some way of making ends meet should it all fall apart. It does not really even take much.

For all my Ivy league degree, cube farming, and military experience, you want to know the easiest thing for me to fall back on? Using my tractor trailer license I got back in college as a part time gig. Seriously. I could get a job today driving a truck paying $60k/yr minimum. Is it a dream job? No. But it is a GREAT thing to be able to fall back on should I need to.

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by jynxyjoe

I miss the play motion one with the dude coming in and kicking grandma to the floor. I could watch that all day.

When I first saw it, and from then on after, I always did this

[MikeOH58]

I've had my CFI for less than a week, and only given a whopping 8 hours of dual instruction so what the hell do I know, but one thing I have already noticed that I love about being a CFI, and that I know will make me a much better pilot is always having to be 100% and flying your A game...Regardless of what you are doing, you should always try and be a 100%, but lets be honest...If you are out building time, or taking a weekend warrior ride for a hundred dollar hamburger, its easy to sit back and sort of relax the flight, especially on the trip home...As a CFI you cant do that. Not to toot my own horn, but to these primary students I am Aviation to them. If we were to go out and do maneuvers, and on the way back from the practice area I just relax and let my guard down I would be failing my students, and soon enough they would say "well Mike lets his guard down towards the end of the flight, thats normal", and they will start to do the same thing when they are off flying on their own because they will emulate how their instructor flys. Like I said, 8 hours, so what do I know, but I can already feel this attitude making me a better pilot.

I became a CFI because this was the career progression I was taught. I look at all the great pilots that I know, and all of them have told me that they have gotten to where they are because of the time they spent as a CFI and II. Thats what I want. I want to be as good, if not better as these guys I look up to, and for me, being a CFI is how I will begin to accomplish that. If you have 300 hours, and legitimately feel you are ready to fly jets, and can get hired and pass training than more power to ya...My only gripe is with people who makes excuses for not being a CFI. For example people who claim they aren't good teachers without ever having put any effort into it. Whatever though...

This topic is a dead horse, that will be beaten for a couple more days, disapear, and then come back in about 3 weeks.

Obviously this is an emotional topic, and the only thing I would recommend is that people watch what they say, and think with their head and not their emotion. Theres no reason to attack or burn bridges over something as stupid as this because you let your emotions get the best of ya...I hate to sound like a jerk, but if people skipping the CFI route pisses you off so much, keep your mouth shut, and one day when you are on a hiring board, when it comes down to the last two applicants who are identical aside from one being a former CFI, and the other who was not....well...Hire the former CFI. I guess thats a gamble that those who skip "this route" have to take. Skipping the CFI at 20 years old might get you an okay job at a regional now, but it very well may be the reason you don't get that great part 91 job in a couple years......

whatever floats your boat. Fly safe everyone, and don't let your emotions get the best of you!

[jtrain609]

BTW To everybody that's going to skip instructing, or towing banners, or throwing meat missiles or aerial survey:

What are you going to do when me and 300 other ExpressJet guys are on the street in October and are better qualified for the jobs you're seeking? Go back to...oh wait, you didn't instruct, or tow banners, or throw meat missiles, or do aerial survey, or anything else for that matter.

I know exactly what I'll be doing, and have plan A, B and C ready to rock already.

[jtrain609]

Whoops, looks like ASA just canceled all their classes.

[Kristie]

that's where that backup degree comes into effect.

John, if you're expecting to be shoved out the door in October, why even wait? I know you're passionate but it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, just realistic.

[Kristie]

speaking of....For the folks that don't get their CFI, that leaves you an open door then doesn't it? students will always need teachers.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

No kidding. For someone his age to have the maturity he shows in his posts is pretty cool...especially when you look at some of his posts from when he first came on. The guy has matured *really* fast.

Hell yes. If I could, I'd adopt him and BCTAV8R.

[aerospacepilot]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

We've got...folks that are trying to get into an extremely competitive industry with the minimum qualifications. This is going to bite a bunch of people in the butt when they lose their jobs in the coming years, or worse yet if they can't get the job they're looking for.


If I were just getting into this industry, or looking at getting into it, I'd be looking at how to make myself as competitive as possible. Go get your four year degree, get your flight instructor certificates, build quality PIC time, take new and interesting jobs in aviation that will broaden your experience level. If you don't, I assure you that there are people out there who ARE doing this right now and when the furlough hits them, they'll have no problems finding a job.

What a great post!!


Everytime someone starts a thread asking:
Can I skip getting a 4 year college degree
I don't want to instruct, can I go straight to the airlines
What regional will hire me with 300 hours

Almost every single person chimes in and says DO NOT DO IT!! They are telling you this for a reason. They are trying to give you the best advice they can. The job market for pilots is super competitve. If you try to make it through with the BARE MINIMUM qualifications (no 4 year college degree, no CFI, little flight time), you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. Jtrain said it so perfectly in another post... something like "In this industry, there are always going to be people better, smarter, more experienced, and better looking than you. What are you going to do to set yourself apart from them." Future pilots should try and become as competitive as possible. If you just get the bare minimum, I have news for you... you are not going to get far in this industry.

If you are looking to get into the airline industry now, you should try your hardest to make yourself as competitive as possible.
Get your 4 year college degree.
Get your CFI/II/MEI ratings
Flight instruct and learn a lot
Build up some quality experience doing something unique

You will be a better pilot because of it. And ultimately you will set yourself apart from others who are trying to get hired with the bare minimum qualifications. And guess what, if the two of you interview for the same job, YOU will get the job because you will be more competitive than the other person.

The airline industry is changing. The best thing any future pilot can do is make themselves as competitive as possible!

[jtrain609]

That's a fairly long and complicated discussion that I've been having with Emily for the last few weeks.

You've got on one hand the group of folks (like Doug) who say, "Don't jump from company to company! Get in, get your TPIC time and get out. The company threatens furlough to get you to give up your pay rate and work rules, so don't buy the hype! You will most likely have nothing happen to you."

Then you've got folks on the other side of that discussion that say, "If you see things crashing down around you, don't wait to bail! If you do, the folks junior to you will be senior at the next company!" Amber's husband saw this, and made the jump to Delta from TWA. In hindsight, good move.

Right now I'm waiting to see what happens, though with the latest bit of information we got today about our board of directors, it's not looking pretty. There's a part of me that isn't willing to do this job for any less, and that's exactly what I'd be doing if I left this place and went somewhere else. There's also the very realistic chance that I'd be flying an even larger aircraft for less money than I am currently. There's another part of me that says "get out now, you need health insurance!" but who's to say that I won't simply be on the bottom of another seniority list when the furlough bus pulls up to that place and starts hauling folks off.

Honestly? I figure if I'm booted out the door, I've got options. What's the WORST thing that happens to me?

-ExpressJet furloughs.
-I can't get on at Compass.
-I can't get on at Republic.
-I can't get on at Mesaba.
-I don't go back to Amflight (even though I'm eligible for rehire)
-I can't find a flight instructing job
-I can't get a job as a ski instructor
-I can't get into grad school
-I can't get a job doing IT

If all that happens, then, well, I can pretty much replace my income while working at Wendy's, so I'm not gonna stress TOO much. But there are plans A through H.

[Citationkid]

Haha, some things never change.

Originally Posted by aloft

Well, considering you were what, 15 years old when you had 500 hours in your logbook, it's no wonder you feel that way. When you subtract all that time you logged riding shotgun with your mom, your flight experience is probably close to typical regional hiring mins.

I have about 350 hours of dual given in my logbook. That gives me like 1300 hours of PIC, 450 hours of multi PIC, 200 hours of Turbine PIC, and about 150 hours PIC of actual instrument time (all single pilot). My logbook can be viewed here:

http://www.logshare.com/log.jsp?emai...ilot88@aol.com

Not to engage in playa hatin' here, but the reason you're feeling that way is because of the fundamental difference between experience and hours logged; that is, actually getting something out of the time, instead of just adding more ink to your logbook. Really, how many hours of multi and even turbine time had you logged before you were even old enough to legally solo? Quite a bit, IIRC.

You sound like you are hating. I had about 100 hours of multi and maybe 20 of turbine prior to getting my multi rating. I know the difference between hours logged and experience, I would imagine I have a lot more of both than you do.

During all those hours logged riding shotgun with your mom, how many times was the go/no-go decision yours to make? How often were you the one to decide whether you really had enough fuel, given the greater-than-forecast headwinds and the three extra pax your customer brought with them? How many times was your systems knowledge tested by an engine that didn't sound right, and how many times did you make the decision to divert because of it?

Ok, so don't count the 350 hours of dual time.

Sorry to use you as an example, Alex, but you make a great case in point for all those guys who think they're ready for a jet cockpit at 300 hrs, because they haven't faced most of those challenges, either.

Why not use yourself as an example. You're a 300 hour pilot right? Why not say all the reasons you aren't ready to fly a jet instead of using me an example?

That said, I do have to commend you because you're even thinking about these issues now, at a still relatively young age.

Thanks,

Alex.

[Doug Taylor]

Train-

Well, you have your four year degree, well networked and the hammer may or may not drop, I think you're in a much better position than the recent high school grads with $80K of flight training debt and no degree.

The airline business is like a marriage. It's got ups and downs. Hopefully the 'ups' are deliciously fabulous, and the 'downs' are few and far between.

Everyone else- You effers'll be fine, stop worrying so much! Those that took the advice we've been doling out for the last decade will be alright. Those that didn't, well, bon chance mi amigo! It is what it is and enjoy the ride.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

Haha, some things never change.



I have about 350 hours of dual given in my logbook. That gives me like 1300 hours of PIC, 450 hours of multi PIC, 200 hours of Turbine PIC, and about 150 hours PIC of actual instrument time (all single pilot). My logbook can be viewed here:

http://www.logshare.com/log.jsp?emai...ilot88@aol.com




You sound like you are hating. I had about 100 hours of multi and maybe 20 of turbine prior to getting my multi rating. I know the difference between hours logged and experience, I would imagine I have a lot more of both than you do.




Ok, so don't count the 350 hours of dual time.



Why not use yourself as an example. You're a 300 hour pilot right? Why not say all the reasons you aren't ready to fly a jet instead of using me an example?



Thanks,

Alex.

Nice write up, Alex.

[aerospacepilot]

Here is another post made on a similar topic.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...degree-eh.html (Don't need a degree eh?)

and

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...gree-eh-6.html (Don't need a degree eh?)

Honestly, I called this initial post the best post I have ever read on jetcareers. Check it out.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by aerospacepilot

Here is another post made on a similar topic.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...degree-eh.html (Don't need a degree eh?)

and

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...gree-eh-6.html (Don't need a degree eh?)

Honestly, I called this initial post the best post I have ever read on jetcareers. Check it out.

Bro I appreciate it, but you just managed to link to one of the most hated threads on this forum in a while. Good luck to you

[BobDDuck]

I was going to send this to Train in an AIM, but I figure other people can benefit from this too.

I went through a bankruptcy at my company. Actually, I was hired during one. During that time period EVERYTHING was up in the air. From month to month we didn't know if our fleet or part of it would be liquidated, we didn't know if some hotels would boot us out for non payment, we didn't know if our parent company folded, would we be sold off or go down with the ship. And then we merged, and again, we didn't know if we would be sold off, kept or what. During that whole time period I was constantly wondering when I would get a line, when I would upgrade, when I might get furloughed. I was always checking aviation job sites, and figuring out ways to get "ahead" what ever that means.

Then at some point it just all stopped mattering. I eventually got a line, I eventually upgraded. But during that time period I realized that 99% of the crap we deal with and worry about is completly uncontrollable, and it serves no purpose to do so.

I still have to laugh when new hires here ask me all this stuff about when I think they'll upgrade or how long they'll be on reserve. There ain't no way to know, so why even worry.

My point, to Jtrain specifically, is that you have no control. You have a back up plan in place, so stop worry and enjoy the flying while you are doing it. If it all comes crashing down, well, then so be it and you've got you A through H plans in place. If it doesn't, well, then you just saved your self a whole lot of stress by not worrying.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

You sound like you are hating. I had about 100 hours of multi and maybe 20 of turbine prior to getting my multi rating. I know the difference between hours logged and experience, I would imagine I have a lot more of both than you do.

How wonderful for you. Now why don't you run out and go get your ATP with all that experience. Oh wait...you can't, you're only 19.

Originally Posted by Citationkid

Why not use yourself as an example. You're a 300 hour pilot right? Why not say all the reasons you aren't ready to fly a jet instead of using me an example?

Because a) my experience and logbook are in agreement, and b) at 650 TT, I never said I was ready to fly a jet!

But to kick this thread back on track, I have the 4-yr degree, 15 years of professional work experience, and a ton of non-aviation-related skills--oh, and a paid-off car and zero training debt. How 'bout you?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I was going to send this to Train in an AIM, but I figure other people can benefit from this too.

I went through a bankruptcy at my company. Actually, I was hired during one. During that time period EVERYTHING was up in the air. From month to month we didn't know if our fleet or part of it would be liquidated, we didn't know if some hotels would boot us out for non payment, we didn't know if our parent company folded, would we be sold off or go down with the ship. And then we merged, and again, we didn't know if we would be sold off, kept or what. During that whole time period I was constantly wondering when I would get a line, when I would upgrade, when I might get furloughed. I was always checking aviation job sites, and figuring out ways to get "ahead" what ever that means.

Then at some point it just all stopped mattering. I eventually got a line, I eventually upgraded. But during that time period I realized that 99% of the crap we deal with and worry about is completly uncontrollable, and it serves no purpose to do so.

I still have to laugh when new hires here ask me all this stuff about when I think they'll upgrade or how long they'll be on reserve. There ain't no way to know, so why even worry.

My point, to Jtrain specifically, is that you have no control. You have a back up plan in place, so stop worry and enjoy the flying while you are doing it. If it all comes crashing down, well, then so be it and you've got you A through H plans in place. If it doesn't, well, then you just saved your self a whole lot of stress by not worrying.

I think you've got the wrong idea here, I'm not exactly stressed out. I just spent have my day skiing, I have 15 days off this month and managed to pull a relief line next month again. I've got some decent backup plans, I'm trying to speak to the folks who DO NOT.

I really hate thread creep.

[Doug Taylor]

My "L'il Dougie" is bigger and girthier than both of yours.

So that's settled!

Lets discuss the topic at hand and not make/take it personal.

[BobDDuck]

Now there's a pleasant image.

[Citationkid]

Thanks for the comments from the other people

Originally Posted by aloft

How wonderful for you. Now why don't you run out and go get your ATP with all that experience. Oh wait...you can't, you're only 19.

I don't get it, is it a bad thing I am 19? Am I supposed to be offended by your comment? Besides, I would have to take a pretty big pay and QOL cut to go to an airline, no need for me to get an ATP

Because a) my experience and logbook are in agreement, and b) at 650 TT, I never said I was ready to fly a jet!

He'll have to confirm the numbers, but I think something close to one third of Alex' total time is "dual received" from his CFI mom while he was between the ages of 12-16 or so, lots of multi and possibly turbine time, while she flew Pt 91 corporate for somebody. Legal? Probably. Of questionable value? Arguably.

My point was that here's a pilot with 1700 hrs logged saying he's only just beginning to feel qualified to crew a jet, and it's likely due to the mismatch between his experience and his logbook; his true experience level is that of a pilot with a lot fewer hours.

No offense, but you have no idea what my experience level is like. My experience level could be equal to that of a pilot with fewer hours, I really don't know or care. I like to think I am more experienced than 1000 hour 172 pilot. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is I am safe in the plane I am flying, which I am.

But to kick this thread back on track, I have the 4-yr degree, 15 years of professional work experience, and a ton of non-aviation-related skills--oh, and a paid-off car and zero training debt. How 'bout you?

Thanks for asking. I have a 2006 car that is paid off, no debt to anybody for anything, oodles (that's right, I said oodles) of money in the bank, plenty of non-aviation related skills and hobbies, I am about 30 credits away from a four year degree in a a business major, and I have a job that I love.

Try to keep it civil,

Alex.

Edit: Crap, Ian already used "oodles" in this thread. So much for originality on my part.