Future regional hiring

[falconvalley]

If you're not going to take the advice of that junior FO, take the advice of this junior FO. Get a degree. Get a skill, something that will feed your family when you get furloughed. Crimony, the man's just trying to give some advice and I don't care who you are, it's good advice.

[Number1atNumber2]

Great posts thus far. I can only wonder what this industry is going to do. Personally I've done the CFI, freight route, and I do think its good one to take. If someone gets into a jet right out of flight school, I will admit I do feel a bit jealous because that route was not available to me at the time. But that's my issue.

With that said, I'll say that my opinion on the matter is if you want to do this as a career, don't half-ass it. Will being a CFI first make you a better pilot? I have to say yes. Can you be as good without it? Possibly, some people have been able to.

One thing to note on the flight hour subject: minimums are just that, MINIMUMS. If you have more time than the next guy, you'll have better chances. Short cuts often screw you sooner or later, so I advocate as much diverse experience as possible. Yes seniority matters at the airlines, but what good is it if you can't get the job in the first place, or have to deal with a furlough or other setback?

I'd like to see the pilot community as a whole take some pride in themselves and not accept substandard working conditions.

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

If you're not going to take the advice of that junior FO, take the advice of this junior FO. Get a degree. Get a skill, something that will feed your family when you get furloughed. Crimony, the man's just trying to give some advice and I don't care who you are, it's good advice.

[Murdoughnut]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I figured this was coming.

It's not about saying, "This is how I did it, I know everything, do what I did or you're hosed!" It actually has more to do with going above and beyond the minimum qualifications. Let's face it, once the flood gates shut down here soon there are going to be a lot of folks complaining about how they "have to instruct" or "have to go to college." That trend, quite frankly, scares the piss out of me. We're turning into a country of people that wants to do the minimum amount of work necessary, but they still want a big pay out in the end.

This is about going above and beyond, about not having the blinders on about what is likely to happen in this industry. It's about not being a hack, which is exactly what I think we've been promoting. This has nothing to do with selling anybody out except for yourself, which is again, something I think we've been promoting. It's about wanting to be the best possible pilot you can be, by broadening yourself as much as possible, so you can beat the living piss out of the guy next to you in the interview.

That doesn't seem very important these days, and it concerns me that anytime somebody brings up the idea that people might be advised to go above and beyond, they're ridiculed for being elitist. It used to be that if you advocated doing anything but doing as much as you possibly can to prepare you the best for this industry you were ostracized. But now the opposite seems true.

The pissing match this thread is about to turn into is another reason why we've lost a lot of good people from these forums, because airline pilots got sick of folks screaming about what they wanted to hear instead of what they needed to hear.

EDIT: BTW I think this whole discussion is akin to attacking the guy that says, "You know, the market looks like might be going through some rough times. Investing in high risk ventures might be a bad idea right now as you've got a better chance of getting burned than you do of recouping your money," with, "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU POOPY FACED SOB!!! I WANT TO MAKE LOTS OF MONEY NOW! DON'T TELL ME WHAT I DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND GIVE ME SOUND ADVICE!"

I buy your retort and I agree with most of what you've said. But to a certain extent, I think it's somewhat overly optimistic to expect a considerable amount of professionalism with this gig, for a few reasons.

First of all, as you have alluded to, it's the new American creed to do as little as possible. I've seen it in 5 years of college teaching just as you see it in your field. The problem is that we compete with these folks. I spent two years at Ohio State working on my Masters degree, yet was surpassed by folks in education who earned theirs in 9-months from a barely accredited college, all the while never leaving their computer. Unfair? Absolutely. But it's the unfortunate twist the market has taken.

As unprofessional as some of my employers have been, airlines take the cake. You're talking about companies who have survived a considerable race to the bottom against other bottom feeders - how much could the possibly value their employees if they have little to no concern for their customers?

I really wish you guys had a union with the backbone and power to put a stop to all of this - and I say this primarily as a passenger who wants to ensure the safety of myself and my family. I believe that what you describe is a problem - but I believe the responsibility (in the absence of corporate responsibility) lies with your unions. You guys have to collectively say enough is enough. Problem is, now your ranks are filling with the sort of pilot you're trying to preclude.

I probably came off as more of an arse than I meant to - I'm sorry. I agree with you, but I just don't think you can blame the new pilots. By most accounts, the first few years of an airline career are pretty awful. Can you blame someone for wanting to get past them as soon as possible?

And to your other question, no - I decided a few months ago that professional aviation wasn't for me. Interestingly, it had a lot to do with some of the people I met in aviation - folks who had, IMO, very little concern for safety (this all stems from a horrible attempt at gaining my multi-certificate). This happened about the time my plane was involved in a fatal accident. A few weeks later I had the unfortunate experience of flying the USAir system. The look of despair and fatigue on the faces of the regional crews I encountered in that weekend were enough to make me reconsider. But this is all personal to my situation - I wouldn't tell anyone else that it was wrong for them to go into the profession, of course. Each case is unique. From what I can tell, you seem to be enjoying it which is great.

[Matt13C]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Not really true in aviation. Best way to keep your job is to have the better seniority number.

There are no paths that are right or wrong in this field. If that person is happy with how they did it then its the right path for them. Who am I to tell a guy who is completely happy with his or her situation that they took the wrong path? Do what you think will be best for you in the long run. If you are smart you will probably come to figure out that with any career having a backup plan, saving money, being educated is always a good thing. I went to ATP and took an RJ program when I had 1000 hours. Stupid? Maybe it is. Do I regret any of it? Absolutely not, I'm at a good company and am lucky enough to have no debt. Do I think this is the only way to do it? No chance. If you want to do the FBO training, then instruct, then fly freight, then get to a regional thats great!! But its not the only "honorable" way to do it. Do what you think is best for you and remember that anything too good to be true usually is. Like the assumption that this regional hiring will continue like this.

I get the feeling that you think I was bashing people who chose the fast track route. I am not, to each their own. Like you said there are many paths to take.

By keep a job I meant the ability to find a job or get an interview when others can't. In this current market 250TT with 25m gets you an interview with a regional. If you pass then it gets you a job. However, since I am just starting my training I do not think that will be the case when I am done. If the carriers I want to work for are hiring when I am done I will CFI until I meet their requirements then apply. If not I will keep CFIing. If the student pool dries up I can go back to plan B and use my degree.

[Lee D]

IMO getting a regional job with less than around 1000 TT is somewhat of an anomaly. If anyone legitimately researches this career path they should see that. The past year and a half has been great if you are starting out into the regional world. I don't think it is typical however.

BTW I like to take naps with my blankie and juice box even when I am not angry. Add a floppy stick of string cheese and some goldfish crackers and I'm as happy as a "fifty someting" woman at a Barry Manilow concert.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

I buy your retort and I agree with most of what you've said. But to a certain extent, I think it's somewhat overly optimistic to expect a considerable amount of professionalism with this gig, for a few reasons.

First of all, as you have alluded to, it's the new American creed to do as little as possible. I've seen it in 5 years of college teaching just as you see it in your field. The problem is that we compete with these folks. I spent two years at Ohio State working on my Masters degree, yet was surpassed by folks in education who earned theirs in 9-months from a barely accredited college, all the while never leaving their computer. Unfair? Absolutely. But it's the unfortunate twist the market has taken.

As unprofessional as some of my employers have been, airlines take the cake. You're talking about companies who have survived a considerable race to the bottom against other bottom feeders - how much could the possibly value their employees if they have little to no concern for their customers?

I really wish you guys had a union with the backbone and power to put a stop to all of this - and I say this primarily as a passenger who wants to ensure the safety of myself and my family. I believe that what you describe is a problem - but I believe the responsibility (in the absence of corporate responsibility) lies with your unions. You guys have to collectively say enough is enough. Problem is, now your ranks are filling with the sort of pilot you're trying to preclude.

I probably came off as more of an arse than I meant to - I'm sorry. I agree with you, but I just don't think you can blame the new pilots. By most accounts, the first few years of an airline career are pretty awful. Can you blame someone for wanting to get past them as soon as possible?

And to your other question, no - I decided a few months ago that professional aviation wasn't for me. Interestingly, it had a lot to do with some of the people I met in aviation - folks who had, IMO, very little concern for safety (this all stems from a horrible attempt at gaining my multi-certificate). This happened about the time my plane was involved in a fatal accident. A few weeks later I had the unfortunate experience of flying the USAir system. The look of despair and fatigue on the faces of the regional crews I encountered in that weekend were enough to make me reconsider. But this is all personal to my situation - I wouldn't tell anyone else that it was wrong for them to go into the profession, of course. Each case is unique. From what I can tell, you seem to be enjoying it which is great.

I just think you read into the post a little bit much, and responded to what you thought was there.

I write very deliberately, and there was no hidden agenda behind what I was writing. I HAVE and I will CONTINUE TO write about the educational aspects of the erosion of the fundamentals in the aviation community these days, but this thread was about how to weather the storm that I believe is brewing. You can argue the Machiavellian perspective of getting your seniority number now, but I'll continue to counter that the ends DO NOT justify the means in this pursuit and I'll back it up with the experiences that I've had in this career thus far. If you wanna hear all about it, come to NJC. But in the end, it was still not the intent of my post. I'm simply laying out what I believe to be the fact that if you take short cuts you WILL get hosed in the end. I have no worries about losing my job and finding a new one, because I can do more than fly airplanes. That gives me some freedom in this career, but it also gives me piece of mind that I can continue to pay my bills and provide for my soon to be wife if it comes down to it. You know as well as I do, dreams are great but you've still gotta find a way to pay the bills. If you don't have that, you're in serious trouble and you'll be married to this career, and you will be forced to take whatever cutbacks the company hands to you. If you can walk away, you have MUCH more power. And that comes from having options, and being the most qualified applicant on the next job when you lose your current one.

Oh hey question for you, think there's any chance that a Masters in Public Admin. that's done online would be looked at as more than a joke? I'm looking into a program through one of the California State University schools right now, looks pretty interesting and since I don't have the time to go to a regular graduate program these days, it looks like a good alternative. Any experience with such a thing?

[meritflyer]

Train has a very good outlook on things, for better or worse.

He may not be 100% accurate but he's definitely onto something.

[JEP]

John, this topic has been discussed over and over since the time I joined this site. It's nothing new. It has come up when the hiring mins were higher and it's still coming up today. So much for originality.

Serious question....If you could get out of aviation and triple your salary, then why don't you? I know, it's not about the money. I would guess it is something you like to do and it works for you. So if someone wants to bypass their degree, cfi's, etc.... and get to their goal, then so be it. That is what worked for them.

That being said there is no one path. As long as one stays away from the pfj/pft scenario how they reach their goal is up to them and only them. If they want to get to a major then sure, a degree is needed. If they don't well then maybe that isn't for them. The same could be said for the CFI ratings: required?...No. nice to have? sure.

If a person can get up in the morning and look in the mirror and be happy with how they got to their goal, whatever it may be, then it really is none of anyone else's business.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Question: If there is a downturn do you think there will be alot of CFI jobs out there? I would think that those entering the training only has to goal of flying for a profession, not just recreational/private. With that reduced due to the downturn, wouldn't it also reduce all employment within the industry?

[Citationkid]

Originally Posted by Lee D

IMO getting a regional job with less than around 1000 TT is somewhat of an anomaly. If anyone legitimately researches this career path they should see that.

The problem is, everyone thinks they are special. Sure 1000 hours should be the magical number, but my 500 hours is better than David's 500 hours so I deserve to be here or there are some kind of extenuating circumstances. If you don't believe me, go look at the member announcements sections, look at the announcies TT/ME combination, and then watch them post about how pitiful the requirements are. I have about 1700 hours with 600 multi, I am just starting to feel like I qualify to be a crewmember in a jet. No way I could have seen myself as a crewmember in a jet with 500 hours, maybe I just don't have any talent

Alex.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by JEP

John, this topic has been discussed over and over since the time I joined this site. It's nothing new. It has come up when the hiring mins were higher and it's still coming up today. So much for originality.

Serious question....If you could get out of aviation and triple your salary, then why don't you? I know, it's not about the money. I would guess it is something you like to do and it works for you. So if someone wants to bypass their degree, cfi's, etc.... and get to their goal, then so be it. That is what worked for them.

That being said there is no one path. As long as one stays away from the pfj/pft scenario how they reach their goal is up to them and only them. If they want to get to a major then sure, a degree is needed. If they don't well then maybe that isn't for them. The same could be said for the CFI ratings: required?...No. nice to have? sure.

If a person can get up in the morning and look in the mirror and be happy with how they got to their goal, whatever it may be, then it really is none of anyone else's business.

You know when your parents said to you, "Jim, what you're doing might accomplish your goals, but YOU know there's a lot better way to do things" and you said, "Screw you, I want to do things fast" and you got burned?

Or said another way, what about the kid that says, "I want to have a really nice car, right now!" and you respond with, "Well can you afford it?" The kid comes back and says, "No, but I can get it right now with this high interest rate loan!" and you say, "That might not be a good idea as you can't really afford the car, or the loan, and you REALLY can't afford to just 'get it now' in your financial condition" and they do it anyway.

That's what this is about. When the economy starts to sour we need to look from, "What can I do to be selfish and do things quickly" to, "What can I do to make my income last and have a stable future for myself, apart from my emotions and my 'dreams.'"

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

I have about 1700 hours with 600 multi, I am just starting to feel like I qualify to be a crewmember in a jet. No way I could have seen myself as a crewmember in a jet with 500 hours, maybe I just don't have any talent

It's not that you don't have any talent (I'm sure you more then have proved that flying charter), but rather you understand what the term "crewmember" actually means. Somebody getting hired at 500 hours will not be a crewmember for a long while. Sure, the first time (if you decide to go that route) that you sit down in the right seat of a RJ you won't be 100% there, but you will get to 100% a heck of a lot faster then somebody with less time.

Is it wrong that these 500 hour guys are in the right seat? I certainly don't think so. I would have been there if it was an option when I was at 500 hours. But it certainly ISN'T fair for the captains who have to play CFI until they catch up.

Ok, I'm going to stop beating this dead horse before PETA comes after me.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

You betta Recognize

Doug always has funny avatars

I miss the play motion one with the dude coming in and kicking grandma to the floor. I could watch that all day.

[Champcar]

Thanks god I got out.

If I had been hired at a regional the past year I'd be stressed out everyday wondering when I would be getting my furlough notice because they are coming.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

I have about 1700 hours with 600 multi, I am just starting to feel like I qualify to be a crewmember in a jet. No way I could have seen myself as a crewmember in a jet with 500 hours, maybe I just don't have any talent

Well, considering you were what, 15 years old when you had 500 hours in your logbook, it's no wonder you feel that way. When you subtract all that time you logged riding shotgun with your mom, your flight experience is probably close to typical regional hiring mins.

Not to engage in playa hatin' here, but the reason you're feeling that way is because of the fundamental difference between experience and hours logged; that is, actually getting something out of the time, instead of just adding more ink to your logbook. Really, how many hours of multi and even turbine time had you logged before you were even old enough to legally solo? Quite a bit, IIRC. Ask yourself what the qualitative difference between an hour you log now vs one logged when you were 14 is, and be honest with yourself. For starters, you're PIC, not your mom. You're legally responsible for the safe outcome of each flight, it's your certificate on the line, and there's no one to bail you out should you screw up. At 14 or 15, I doubt you could even get your brain around the notion of being responsible for the lives of others and property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions. (That's not a dig on you, btw, just a cognitive reality.)

During all those hours logged riding shotgun with your mom, how many times was the go/no-go decision yours to make? How often were you the one to decide whether you really had enough fuel, given the greater-than-forecast headwinds and the three extra pax your customer brought with them? How many times was your systems knowledge tested by an engine that didn't sound right, and how many times did you make the decision to divert because of it?

Sorry to use you as an example, Alex, but you make a great case in point for all those guys who think they're ready for a jet cockpit at 300 hrs, because they haven't faced most of those challenges, either.

That said, I do have to commend you because you're even thinking about these issues now, at a still relatively young age.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by aloft

Well, considering you were what, 15 years old when you had 500 hours in your logbook, it's no wonder you feel that way. When you subtract all that time you logged riding shotgun with your mom, your flight experience is probably close to typical regional hiring mins.

Not to engage in playa hatin' here, but the reason you're feeling that way is because of the fundamental difference between experience and hours logged; that is, actually getting something out of the time, instead of just adding more ink to your logbook. Really, how many hours of multi and even turbine time had you logged before you were even old enough to legally solo? Quite a bit, IIRC. Ask yourself what the qualitative difference between an hour you log now vs one logged when you were 14 is, and be honest with yourself. For starters, you're PIC, not your mom. You're legally responsible for the safe outcome of each flight, it's your certificate on the line, and there's no one to bail you out should you screw up. At 14 or 15, I doubt you could even get your brain around the notion of being responsible for the lives of others and property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions. (That's not a dig on you, btw, just a cognitive reality.)

During all those hours logged riding shotgun with your mom, how many times was the go/no-go decision yours to make? How often were you the one to decide whether you really had enough fuel, given the greater-than-forecast headwinds and the three extra pax your customer brought with them? How many times was your systems knowledge tested by an engine that didn't sound right, and how many times did you make the decision to divert because of it?

Sorry to use you as an example, Alex, but you make a great case in point for all those guys who think they're ready for a jet cockpit at 300 hrs, because they haven't faced most of those challenges, either.

That said, I do have to commend you because you're even thinking about these issues now, at a still relatively young age.

Confused.

It was my understanding Alex made go/nogo PIC command decisions in complex turbine aircraft while operating in the IFR environment rather routinely.

It appears he has oodles more experience than you - not just in hours logged but in the exact quality of experience you find important - so I guess I don't get it.

Alex has a humility about his experience others should emulate.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Alex has a humility about his experience others should emulate.

No kidding. For someone his age to have the maturity he shows in his posts is pretty cool...especially when you look at some of his posts from when he first came on. The guy has matured *really* fast.

[LoadMasterC141]

Just as an outsider looking in, it does seem that things are a bit slower to start than this time last year, but there are still plenty of regionals hiring.

Speaking from 33 years of experience in this economy, downturns come and downturns go. Are we headed for a downturn? Of course. We are already there. It will pass. My prediction is that we will be headed in the opposite direction this time next year, when the political front has stabilized. A downturn is fairly common with an election year anyway. Add-in a money sucking stagnated war front, and it is inevitable.

The Age 65 rule has only postponed things. Many have argued on here that it may not be postponing them as much as one would think either; Doug shared the top of his seniority list and showed those out on medical before age 60. Also, alot of these folks planned on getting out at 60, even with the furloughs and pay cuts, so they probably still will. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

The nail in the coffin this year, to me, would be the mergers of major airlines, which seem to be coming quickly. It seems to me that the consolidations will be the bane of aspiring wannabes like myself way before the rest of the factors mentioned. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

I am a wet commercial licensed pilot who just quit his cushy desk job to make a 1/3rd of his original pay(HOPEFULLY!) at a regional. That makes me nervous. If I can get in a regional right now at 400 hours, heck 300, it is awful tempting. I'd rather be there than sitting on the sidelines while the minimums go way up and hiring slows to a crawl, as is being prophesized here. Do I care if some of you take offense to that? I could give a flying you know whatskie. Some of you talked me out of taking a large loan that would already have me in an airline with probably a year to go to upgrade. So don't talk to me about how your way is the right way. I am sick of it. Your way worked for you. It is nice to share, but stop coming on here and condemning those that go another route. As long as they are not affecting your job by things such as PFJ.

The funny part of all this? Coming on here and foretelling of the end of this hiring spree is only going to make people like me speed our plans up. Think about it: If things are indeed slowing down, then I need to speed my plans up to get a chair, any chair, before the music stops. So instead of taking my time, getting some experience instructing, getting the hours needed to get on with a choice regional, I am going to bumrush the door to get in somewhere rather than nowhere.

[Airdale]

Has anyone payed attention to what Doug "The Man" Taylor has said!?!?!

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

A couple points.

If you can't have a rational discussion without insulting one another or setting off the profanity filter, you don't belong in the thread. Grab a juice box, a blankie and take a nap.

Remember, this career is cyclical and largely follows the economic swings.

There are going to be good times and there are also going to be bad times, but if you're in it to win it, you'll be fine.

If you've followed even the most basic of guidance that most of at JC offer, keeping debt low, having a degree and a plan-B, you'll be fine if/when things get a little rocky.

But if you ran guns a blazing down to "sign right here, you'll make up that $100K loan with your first paycheck from TransGlobal, nevermind getting a degree and who needs a silly backup plan" you're probably going to get rocked.

I think we're seeing the first hints of a downturn. It's not aero armageddon but I don't think we're going to see many knife fights in the street between human resource managers fighting over pilot applicants.

I was going to jump in here and say something, but then I saw Dougs post and I thought....."Damn..he's right!"

Why are we not talking about Women and Beer yet?

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Confused.

[snip]

It appears he has oodles more experience than you - not just in hours logged but in the exact quality of experience you find important - so I guess I don't get it.

Appearances can be deceiving.

He'll have to confirm the numbers, but I think something close to one third of Alex' total time is "dual received" from his CFI mom while he was between the ages of 12-16 or so, lots of multi and possibly turbine time, while she flew Pt 91 corporate for somebody. Legal? Probably. Of questionable value? Arguably.

My point was that here's a pilot with 1700 hrs logged saying he's only just beginning to feel qualified to crew a jet, and it's likely due to the mismatch between his experience and his logbook; his true experience level is that of a pilot with a lot fewer hours.

[Ian J]

I'll admit I have no idea about his background, so let's look what he's doing now:

He's a CFI.

He's the PIC of a multi-engine turbine airplane.

He flies IFR.

He has over 200 hours actual instrument.

His experience is leaps and bounds over the low-time pilots who currently think they're ready to ride right seat in a jet. In today's market he is over qualified for a regional airline.

A lot of higher time CFIs will also say they don't feel qualified to fly a passenger yet jet either because at a certain point they begin to realize and understand how much they don't know yet. A 300-700 hour non CFI pilot may say that, but not really mean it because they don't know what they don't know.

[mikecweb]

:yawn: