Skybus and the Teamsters

[Fins Up]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Why won't it be ALPA?

What is wrong with having ONE union for all 121 scheduled passenger operators?

Oh wait. . nevermind - ALPA is evil.

The problem is the inherent conflict of interst. In any trial you wouldn't have one group of lawyers represent the plaintiff and defendant would you? Plus, I don't want our pilot group to have to answer to anyone except us. That's just the plain truth.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Fins Up

The problem is the inherent conflict of interst. In any trial you wouldn't have one group of lawyers represent the plaintiff and defendant would you?

Where is the conflict? Who are the plaintiffs and defendants in your analogy? Are we not all pilots with a singe unified goal of improving the profession?

Plus, I don't want our pilot group to have to answer to anyone except us. That's just the plain truth.

That's a very short-sighted mindset. If every pilot group went on their own with no unified central voice, who would protect us from cabatoge? Who would push for bankruptcy reform? Who would push for the creation of programs like ASAP and FOQA? Who would do accident investigations? Who would have the central database of grievance arbitration awards and settlements? I could go on and on here. The fact is, without a central organization, we are all doomed for failure. The isolationism approach will never work.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

That's quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've seen posted on this board (ok, with the possible exception of the pro-uSAPa crap). Competition is NOT good when you want to defend yourself and your profession. To have any success whatsoever in protecting our profession we need ONE UNION, ONE VOICE, and ONE MISSION! Splitting up will only weaken us. I'm glad the JetBlue pilots are starting a union drive, and I've even contributed to it, but I wish they were going with ALPA. My only hope is that they eventually realize that merging their independent union with ALPA is the way to go.

[DE727UPS]

"The fact is, without a central organization, we are all doomed for failure"

CAPA. http://www.capapilots.org/

Independent pilot groups banding together.

Based on past history, since 1990, I'm glad to be independent from ALPA. There are many ex-ALPA pilots at my airline that are glad to be independent. My personal experience outside ALPA has been just fine. I recognize what ALPA has done (flying the line one and two) but I think there are other options that suit today's diverse pilot groups that can be a great choice.

The hard core pro-ALPA folks at this site use the jumpseat to push their personal agenda. That's not a good thing when a good bit of the profession is not ALPA but yet has to deal with the damage.

[PCL_128]

CAPA is a joke. I'm a pilot in a CAPA member union, but I still send my dollars to ALPA-PAC. When Congress wants testimony on something affecting our industry or profession, they call Captains Prater and Rice. They don't all CAPA. In fact, they don't even know what CAPA is. Ask every Senator and Congressman on the Hill about ALPA, and every single on of them can tell you not only what ALPA is, but also what ALPA's stances on the latest issues are. Ask Congressmen and Senators about CAPA, and you'll have a very hard time finding a single one that has ever heard of it.

Besides, the very fact that CAPA is separate from ALPA is destructive. It means that pilots are not unified on the Hill. That sends a bad message (well, it would if Congress knew that CAPA existed, anyway ).

Another piece of info: CAPA has an unwritten policy of not taking any position in conflict with that of ALPA. CAPA only lobbies, in the rare instances where they actually lobby anyway, on the same issues that ALPA lobbies for. This basically makes CAPA useless. Why even exist if you are just going to play follow the leader? Why not just join with ALPA if you're going to march in lock step? The whole idea of CAPA is absurd.

[DE727UPS]

"CAPA is a joke."

Whatever works for you. The leadership of the UPS pilot group begs to differ...

[PCL_128]

Ask them what CAPA has accomplished in the past few years. If you make it to NJC this year, I'll buy you a drink for every thing they can come up with. I don't think my wallet will be hurting too much.

[DE727UPS]

"Ask them what CAPA has accomplished in the past few years"

Matter of opinon, PCL. Keep your drinks to yourself.

Tell us how great the policy of using the jumpseat as a personal weapon is working for you?

That's how I see ALPA......

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Matter of opinon, PCL.

No, accomplishments are quantifiable. Either CAPA has had them or they haven't.

Keep your drinks to yourself.

Such animosity. You really should calm down, Don.

Tell us how great the policy of using the jumpseat as a personal weapon is working for you?

That's how I see ALPA......

You shouldn't. That's not ALPA, that's my personal opinion. ALPA's official policy is that they don't recommend using the jumpseat as a political tool. You shouldn't take my personal opinions as ALPA policy.

[DE727UPS]

"You shouldn't. That's not ALPA, that's my personal opinion"

Okay.

"You shouldn't take my personal opinions as ALPA policy"

Works for me. You were an ALPA MEC at PCL but I shouldn't take your opinons as ALPA policly. Hummmmm.....

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Skybus FAs must be babysat by their pilots because they were showing up to work drunk, which would then of course cause the flight to be canceled and ferried back to CMH. This guy literally has had to drag them out of the bars (what bar is serving people underage down there? aparently they get guys to buy them drinks) and then a couple hours later they're flying airplanes. Not good."

Wow. Just wow.

From a professional standpoint, that's just wrong.

From my personal non-airline employee standpoint, can someone let me know what hotel they layover at? And when their flights come in?

If they're gonna ##### themselves out, we may as well help them.

Joke. Kidding. Laugh. Do not take seriously.

And on a serious note, are the pilots getting paid for their babysitting duties?

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"You shouldn't take my personal opinions as ALPA policy"

Works for me. You were an ALPA MEC at PCL but I shouldn't take your opinons as ALPA policly. Hummmmm.....

You think that every ALPA rep has the same personal opinion as the official policy? Very bad assumption. ALPA's official policy is now in support of Age-65. My personal opinion is that that is a detriment to safety and the profession. Is there anything wrong with a rep disagreeing with official policy? Of course not. A few hundred elected officers are not all going to agree on every issue. We agree on the majority of the issues, but not all of them. Never assume that an individual's opinion reflects ALPA policy simply because he is a rep.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by tonyw

And on a serious note, are the pilots getting paid for their babysitting duties?

...are they getting paid to pick up water from Costco?

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

...are they getting paid to pick up water from Costco?

I'm not sure who's ####### themselves out more.

The FAs or the pilots.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

You think that every ALPA rep has the same personal opinion as the official policy? Very bad assumption. ALPA's official policy is now in support of Age-65. My personal opinion is that that is a detriment to safety and the profession. Is there anything wrong with a rep disagreeing with official policy? Of course not. A few hundred elected officers are not all going to agree on every issue. We agree on the majority of the issues, but not all of them. Never assume that an individual's opinion reflects ALPA policy simply because he is a rep.

Wait a second. Two threads ago you were talking about how a rep MUST represent ALPA. Now you have a rep say "do as I say, not as I do"... Or did you tell your pilots to use the jumpseat as a weapon if they wanted to? If you did that, it would be against ALPA policy, which is pretty much what got the Council 41 Reps booted.

I know I'm simplifying, but you see the issue I have with this?

[Velocipede]

Actually, Section 115 of the Admin manual pretty much allows Captains to accept or reject jumpseat riders as they see fit. And it specifically allows Captains to require a current Union card.

The language "Use of the jumpseat as a political tool is NOT SUPPORTED" is intentionally vague so as to be meaningless.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Wait a second. Two threads ago you were talking about how a rep MUST represent ALPA.

Yes, you absolutely MUST carry the Association's policy to the membership as a rep. So, if you're a rep and are expressing your personal opinion to the members, you should be clear about what is policy and what is opinion. Nothing is wrong with having a differing opinion than the Association. This is different, however, than supporting an opposing union, which is the topic of the thread you're referencing. The Bylaws are clear that a rep cannot take part in any action that seeks to harm the Association.

Or did you tell your pilots to use the jumpseat as a weapon if they wanted to?

No, of course not. I've always been very adamant that the jumpseat belongs to the Captain (as policy states), and it's really none of my business what you do with your jumpseat. Personally, I don't allow anti-union pilots on my jumpseat. If you agree, then great, if not, then do what you want with your jumpseat.

If you did that, it would be against ALPA policy, which is pretty much what got the Council 41 Reps booted.

The Council 41 reps weren't booted for disagreeing with ALPA policy, they were booted for trying to harm the Association that they were supposed to be a representative of. Big difference.

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by tonyw

Wow. Just wow.

From a professional standpoint, that's just wrong.

From my personal non-airline employee standpoint, can someone let me know what hotel they layover at? And when their flights come in?

If they're gonna ##### themselves out, we may as well help them.

Joke. Kidding. Laugh. Do not take seriously.

And on a serious note, are the pilots getting paid for their babysitting duties?

Thinking about it some more, it seems like there is some significant exposure to, uh, liability in that case (ahem). If the company has a convention of monitoring ("babysitting") their employees during layovers and one of those employees goes out and wrecks-up the place, it seems like blame could potentially be placed on the company, or even the captain personally, for failing to keep their urchins on a leash.

This is an airline?

[Doug Taylor]

Geez, are they going to make sure the crew eats enough vegetables and fiber during the layover?

[SoCalAprch]

PCL what if you are pro-union but work at a non-union company? Will you give them the jumpseat? What if you are anti-union but work at an ALPA company and carry a card and just don't say anything? Using the Jumpseat as a political tool is retarded. Once you do that you are messing with someones livelihood. What if they no show and get fired and have 3 kids to feed? All because you are so high and mighty with your union views that they weren't good enough to ride on your plane. If you want to use your jumpseat as a tool to educate fine. Give a pilot a ride to work and if you have time you can educate them on your opinions.

I am pro-union all the way, I bitched at my friend at Skywest because she says "look what ALPA has done for Comair, We don't need it, they treat us just fine" I agree there is a need to try to get people on the unions side but by being a dick and leaving someone out in the cold is not going to make them want to start a union drive. If every ALPA pilot I experienced was a arse I would want nothing to do with ALPA.

I met a SkyBus guy and he was a really nice guy. He got furloughed and said that he made the choice because he wanted to be home every night in Columbus. He has four really young kids and just wanted to see them grow up without being gone all the time. His wife has a good job so he said money wasn't much of an issue. All his trips are day trips. He hates the fact that they don't have a union and is on the verge of quitting because of the work rules. He was really pushing the union thing and I felt kinda bad for the guy. He said that the pilot group had every intention of unionizing as soon as things got underway.

[Qgar]

If that babysitting story is true, it would be hysterical if it wasn't so sad. But, that's what you get when you lower the bar and hire 18 year olds. Don't get me wrong, I work with some 18 year-old FA's who are more mature than some 38 year-old ones, but by and large, they're not mature enough to handle certain situations. This scares the crap out of me if there is ever an on-board emergency.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

PCL what if you are pro-union but work at a non-union company?

As I've said before, I would give them a ride. Remember, I was a union organizer, so I have nothing against pro-union pilots that work at non-union companies. They are part of the solution, not part of the problem.

What if you are anti-union but work at an ALPA company and carry a card and just don't say anything?

I obviously can't read minds, so if someone is a union member and doesn't make any anti-union comments, then they'll obviously get a ride.

Once you do that you are messing with someones livelihood.

Anti-union pilots are messing with my livelihood and the livelihoods of all air line pilots.

Give a pilot a ride to work and if you have time you can educate them on your opinions.

My jumpseat isn't a classroom, and the cockpit is certainly not the place to get involved in a protracted argument about unions. I consider that a safety issue.

[surreal1221]

I've stated that for all 121 scheduled PASSENGER operations, that I feel it should be ONE UNION with one voice. Collectively.

Now for guys like Don, or any other cargo driver who operates 121. . .I don't really give a damn what type of union / association you boys and girls use. You're not competition to the 121 scheduled PASSENGER operators.

So. . .no sense arguing with DE in regards to who he thinks is the better union for the 121 passenger collective.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

As I've said before, I would give them a ride. Remember, I was a union organizer, so I have nothing against pro-union pilots that work at non-union companies. They are part of the solution, not part of the problem.



I obviously can't read minds, so if someone is a union member and doesn't make any anti-union comments, then they'll obviously get a ride.



Anti-union pilots are messing with my livelihood and the livelihoods of all air line pilots.



My jumpseat isn't a classroom, and the cockpit is certainly not the place to get involved in a protracted argument about unions. I consider that a safety issue.

So you won't give your jumpseat to an anti-union guy. How many people come asking for the jumpseat and say "Hey guys looking for a ride to work, by the way Im anti-union." I just want to know how your logic works when deciding if you should or shouldn't let the guy have the jumpseat. Would you give a Skybus guy a ride if he was leading the push for a union?

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

So you won't give your jumpseat to an anti-union guy. How many people come asking for the jumpseat and say "Hey guys looking for a ride to work, by the way Im anti-union."

Haven't we been over all this before? This is really simple. If an ALPA pilot asked for the jumpseat, but he was not wearing an ALPA pin, I asked him about it. If a non-ALPA pilot asked for the jumpseat, I asked for his union card. When you do this, the anti-union guys usually make themselves known pretty quick. They launch into anti-union rants, or they start defending their belief that their airline doesn't need a union. Now with the uSAPa saps, just look for their neon yellow lanyard. It's hard to miss.

Would you give a Skybus guy a ride if he was leading the push for a union?

Yep. As long as he's not former GoJet.