Skybus and the Teamsters

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yes, you're right, there are a lot of ignorant pilots at B6 who don't understand how ALPA and unions in general work.

So now you are calling your fellow pilots ignorant?? That's going to help them understand ALPA.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

So now you are calling your fellow pilots ignorant??

Anti-ALPA pilots? Damn straight.

[mikecweb]

What union represents the pilots of ValuJet II (Airtran)?

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

What union represents the pilots of ValuJet II (Airtran)?

The NPA. Something I hope to get changed.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

You do realize that B6 is about 30% ex Airways guys who feel like ALPA (local AND national) pretty much killed their careers right?

Yes. . .and they can either choose to be the minority, or join the majority.

Difficult choice for them I suppose, but when the majority of 121 scheduled passenger operators who are unionized - are represented by ALPA. . .I think it should be very sternly put into their head that we need ONE UNION, for all 121 scheduled passenger operations.

Originally Posted by Ian J

Easy there killers. Tracy isn't an airline pilot. Is it possible one might think competition is a good thing with unions because competition is a good thing with many other things? See where a non-airline pilot just might get from A to B on that one?

Educate, man. Don't ridicule. Be excellent to each other.

No, I don't see how one could think multiple unions for one profession could ever be viewed as a good thing.

It's called collective bargaining for a reason. The more numbers we have on OUR side, in ONE house, the better we'll operate as a unionized profession.

ALPA didn't get it's start by bringing in twenty different pilot groups, it started as ONE association that opened an umbrella for every professional pilot of the time, and supported EACH and every member equally.

Competition in the business sense is great for the customer, but competition between different unions does nothing but put each association against each other.

One union, for all 121 scheduled passenger operators. I don't think that's too much to ask if we are to protect our profession and truly feel united to protecting our interests.

[Gonzo]

You and I both know why it is NPA and not ALPA?

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

You and I both know why it is NPA and not ALPA?

I do. I have no idea what you think the reason is.

[Gonzo]

The same reason B6 is not going to be ALPA.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Educate, man. Don't ridicule. Be excellent to each other.

Good advice.

I'm telling you guys, when you turn up the vitriol, people we need to reach completely tune out.

It might make you feel like a stud for a short period of time, but we lose in the long run.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

The same reason B6 is not going to be ALPA.

In that case, you're incorrect. We have some former AAA pilots here, but not a whole lot. I've flown with three so far. One was indifferent towards ALPA but would probably vote for it if a vote actually happened, and the other two were adamantly pro-ALPA and very frustrated with the NPA. We have some former TWA pilots that are mostly anti-ALPA, but most of them are planning to leave when AMR recalls them within the next year or so because they go back to American with all of their longevity intact (12 year pay scale, and Captain bidding rights into all STL Captain vacancies ahead of the nAAtive AMR pilots.).

[Gonzo]

The pilots that voted in NPA were not fans of ALPA. A lot of EAL (some good, not fans of ALPA and some bad ALPA for the most part did want them) guys. As we have seen over the years a few senior guy can swing a vote.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

The pilots that voted in NPA were not fans of ALPA. A lot of EAL (some good, not fans of ALPA and some bad ALPA for the most part did want them) guys. As we have seen over the years a few senior guy can swing a vote.

The NPA is a carryover from the ValuJet days. Only a small handful of those pilots still remain. The overwhelming majority of our pilots are former regional drivers that have been hired since '99. A tiny group of a few dozen former EAL pilots can't overrule the will of 1700 other pilots.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

The NPA is a carryover from the ValuJet days. Only a small handful of those pilots still remain. The overwhelming majority of our pilots are former regional drivers that have been hired since '99. A tiny group of a few dozen former EAL pilots can't overrule the will of 1700 other pilots.

Thank God, I hear about the TA the old guys wanted to put to a vote.

But back in the day (ValuJet days) they wanted nothing to do with ALPA.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

One union, for all 121 scheduled passenger operators. I don't think that's too much to ask if we are to protect our profession and truly feel united to protecting our interests.

I agree with you. But ALPA isn't a Union. It's an Association. Big difference. And you and I both know that ALPA will never be a Union. That would take a single seniority list. So just because a pilot group isn't a member of the Association doesn't mean that they won't take part in pattern bargaining. You can be damn sure that anybody who flies 737s is going to be looking at SWAs rates next time their contract comes up. Just as Delta is probably going to be using AA's 777 and 767 rates as a starting point.

Don't write off a pilot group as being ignorant because they aren't members of the same club. If it mattered, I'd agree with you, but the only thing that having a group be a member of ALPA prevents is them taking a LOWER rate for growth. And even then, ALPA has had mixed results preventing that.

[MQAAord]

Getting back to the Skybus theme, here's an interesting tidbit I saw on the FA.org forums: (the below is not me speaking, but a current FA.....)

"I just had a pilot from [Skybus] on one of my flights the other day. They're having a lot of problems, most interesting was that the company insists the pilots stay with the flight attendants on their FLL overnights, and babysit them. That's right folks - under age drinking Skybus FAs must be babysat by their pilots because they were showing up to work drunk, which would then of course cause the flight to be canceled and ferried back to CMH. This guy literally has had to drag them out of the bars (what bar is serving people underage down there? aparently they get guys to buy them drinks) and then a couple hours later they're flying airplanes. Not good."

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I agree with you. But ALPA isn't a Union. It's an Association. Big difference. And you and I both know that ALPA will never be a Union. That would take a single seniority list. So just because a pilot group isn't a member of the Association doesn't mean that they won't take part in pattern bargaining. You can be damn sure that anybody who flies 737s is going to be looking at SWAs rates next time their contract comes up. Just as Delta is probably going to be using AA's 777 and 767 rates as a starting point.

Don't write off a pilot group as being ignorant because they aren't members of the same club. If it mattered, I'd agree with you, but the only thing that having a group be a member of ALPA prevents is them taking a LOWER rate for growth. And even then, ALPA has had mixed results preventing that.

And then it'd also be fair to say that the Teamsters, are not a union - at least in our airline business - because they lack a single seniority list.

But that's semantics. . .

Also, I haven't written anyone off as ignorant.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Getting back to the Skybus theme, here's an interesting tidbit I saw on the FA.org forums: (the below is not me speaking, but a current FA.....)

"I just had a pilot from [Skybus] on one of my flights the other day. They're having a lot of problems, most interesting was that the company insists the pilots stay with the flight attendants on their FLL overnights, and babysit them. That's right folks - under age drinking Skybus FAs must be babysat by their pilots because they were showing up to work drunk, which would then of course cause the flight to be canceled and ferried back to CMH. This guy literally has had to drag them out of the bars (what bar is serving people underage down there? aparently they get guys to buy them drinks) and then a couple hours later they're flying airplanes. Not good."

Hate to come across as a pro-skybus person but I would expect a little more from a website moderator then posting something such as the above from another website. I'm sure you have heard plenty of stories when you were on the line that were far from the truth. The above is just trying to breed hate for an airline. Lets stick to facts, I know it's hard when some (not necessarily you Amber) see blood in the water.

[surreal1221]

It could be lies, but it also could be truth.

Who knows. We don't have a large Skybus congregation here (any?) so we'll never know.

But I'm glad to see more coming to the surface in reference to what these crews are having to deal with.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

So now you are calling your fellow pilots ignorant?? That's going to help them understand ALPA.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Anti-ALPA pilots? Damn straight.

that makes no sense. If you want non-ALPA pilots to join ALPA (at any point in time), calling them ignorant is not the way to go about it.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Hate to come across as a pro-skybus person but I would expect a little more from a website moderator then posting something such as the above from another website.

say wha? her being a moderator has nothing to do with what she decides to post in a thread.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Thank God, I hear about the TA the old guys wanted to put to a vote.

Oh yeah, those senior guys were salivating over that TA. The bad work-rule changes wouldn't have affected their ultra-senior schedules, but they would have been making $184/hr to fly a DC-9 variant. That's almost pre-9/11 payrates for that size of equipment. The other 75% of the list would have been screwed, though.

But back in the day (ValuJet days) they wanted nothing to do with ALPA.

Very true. Thankfully, those days are far behind us.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Hate to come across as a pro-skybus person but I would expect a little more from a website moderator then posting something such as the above from another website. I'm sure you have heard plenty of stories when you were on the line that were far from the truth. The above is just trying to breed hate for an airline. Lets stick to facts, I know it's hard when some (not necessarily you Amber) see blood in the water.

Actually, I just thought it was an interesting tidbit of what someone had experienced from someone there.

Sorry to offend.......

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I agree with you. But ALPA isn't a Union. It's an Association. Big difference. And you and I both know that ALPA will never be a Union. That would take a single seniority list.

Why do you think it takes a single seniority list to be a union? Are the Teamsters not a union? The IAM? The AFA? These are all unions, but none have a single seniority list. The use of the term "Association" is simply a stylistic one. Legally and for all intents and purposes, ALPA is a union.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Actually, I just thought it was an interesting tidbit of what someone had experienced from someone there.

Sorry to offend.......

No worries it didn't offend me personally. I just hate the "I heard" type stories.
"I heard Skybus management makes their pilots buy lottery tickets and if they win they have to share their earnings with the airline."
Just doesn't really improve the profession as it does more to just breed hatred. Educating improves the profession, hatred just turns people off.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Kristie

that makes no sense. If you want non-ALPA pilots to join ALPA (at any point in time), calling them ignorant is not the way to go about it.

I'm not calling non-ALPA pilots ignorant. Hell, I am a non-ALPA pilot!

non-ALPA: not a member of ALPA, or at least not an Active Status member

anti-ALPA: not just non-ALPA, but actually standing against ALPA


That's a big difference.