Southwest vs. the FAA

[FlyChicaga]

Yes, I have read the BUR transcript. I even have a video recreation of the event that our Human Factors Department made here on my computer. I have also read the MDW transcript. The point is, no airline is immune from pilots doing stupid things. At the same time, no airline is immune from pilots making a decision and looking in hindsight that a better course of action could have resulted in a different outcome.

Since I work very closely with Flight Standards and ALPA Safety with my "other" job, I get to see a lot of things that the general public nor our line pilots see. We use these events to learn from ourselves. Let me ask you this: If you saw FOQA data of a crew that swings gear at 300 feet and +200 knots, then takes the last [90-degree] turnoff on a 12,000 foot runway at 60 knots, would you feel that they had an unsafe culture? Would you feel the crew was unprofessional? Because that did happen... in a B777... for a major US airline. Nobody is immune...

Two accidents and one fatality in the history of the airline does not make an unsafe culture. Southwest does have a "get'r done" approach to flying, but not at the expense of safety. I have done a lot of research into their corporate culture and standards, and I am very impressed at the way they do things. They even have a section in their Flight Operations Manual dedicated to the importance of standardization, putting safety over on-time, and professionalism versus foolish pride. I didn't see the section that says, "taxi fast and be on-time or else."

Now, back on track with the original topic of the thread, I am just anxious to see the outcome of the hearings on this matter. I'd rather see all the facts before I make a judgment.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

The point is, no airline is immune from pilots doing stupid things.

Yes, but airlines can reduce the risk by not rushing their pilots around all the time.

Let me ask you this: If you saw FOQA data of a crew that swings gear at 300 feet and +200 knots, then takes the last [90-degree] turnoff on a 12,000 foot runway at 60 knots, would you feel that they had an unsafe culture?

I can't answer that question without knowing who it was. My opinion of SWA isn't based on a single accident, but on observations of their operation over a long period of time. The "hurry, hurry, hurry" mentality is a detriment to safety.

Two accidents and one fatality in the history of the airline does not make an unsafe culture.

And it doesn't necessarily make a safe culture, either.

They even have a section in their Flight Operations Manual dedicated to the importance of standardization, putting safety over on-time, and professionalism versus foolish pride.

Doesn't everyone have that section in their FOM? It's kind of a given. Doesn't really say anything about their airline. Pinnacle had a section in the FOM called the Guiding Principles. It talked about safety above all else, caring for the employees, etc... It was obviously complete bullsh--. We called it the "guideless principles."

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yes, but airlines can reduce the risk by not rushing their pilots around all the time.

And pilots can reduce the risk by not rushing. See where this is going? Who's gonna be to blame ultimately in an accident/incident? The pilot or the company. The CEO wasn't at the controls, and the pilot makes a conscious decision to hurry. If a guy runs off the runway and starts calling out the company on a poor safety culture, he's gonna look like a whiner. No one was standing behind his seat with a gun saying "Taxi fast." THEY are the ones that made the choice.

Like I said, I worked there for three years. I wasn't a pilot, but I worked at a pilot domicile. I NEVER in those three years got the impression or even any indications that they put on-time performance over safety as you're claiming.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

And pilots can reduce the risk by not rushing. See where this is going?

Yes, it's going into a fantasy land where pilots can buck the culture of their airline. Sadly, it usually doesn't work that way. If everyone else is rushing to get flights out on time, and you're the one Captain that refuses to rush around, you're drawing a target on your back. This is why I never even applied to SWA. I didn't want anything to do with their "git'r done" philosophy.

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yes, but airlines can reduce the risk by not rushing their pilots around all the time.

How exactly does SWA rush their pilots around? From all I've seen, their schedule is no different than most other airlines. Doing things quickly does not necessarily mean you are doing things unsafe. It is only when you start rushing so much that you begin missing things, and do nothing about it, then there is a problem.

Yes, rushing and doing nothing to rectify the situation was the leading cause in the BUR accident. However one flight out the thousands upon thousands SWA has flown since 1971 does not signify a culture that puts on-time over the safety of their customers.

We can find examples of accidents at every other major airline where rushing has caused an accident. How about American Airlines 1420 in LIT? KLM in Tenerife (that was a Training Captain and the poster child for the company)? American Airlines in Cali, Colombia? Air France A-340 in Toronto?

The fact is, management at every airline wants flights to leave on-time. It is only when the pilots themselves succumb to this pressure and begin to cut corners does problems arise. I do not see this militant, "on-time or else!" culture that you are proclaiming at SWA. Maybe it was prevalent at Pinnacle, but that doesn't mean every airline in the world operates like that. I'll tell you right now I've worked for two airlines that stressed on-time percentages, but never at the expense of safety. Velocipede made mention of how Captain's authority is degraded by dispatch and scheduling. That is only true if that Captain allows it to be. I've taken some questionable delays (like when I held a flight because a customer left his laptop at the frequent flier club), and I've never heard anything about it. I'll do everything in my power to get the flight out on-time... But if I have a good reason to delay, then so be it.

Here is a story: One of our pilots at my previous company was out flying when his wife went into labor. He was also a commuter. Enroute to Chicago, he called operations to find out what time a SWA flight for his home city was leaving. It was about the time he was due in. After landing, our crew van driver picked him up and rushed him over to the gate. He was a bit late, but the flight was still there. When he got up the jetway, the crew was waiting for him... The Captain chose to delay the flight for 15 minutes so he could make it and get to see his wife.

Yes, SWA really puts on-time above all else.

[PCL_128]

Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.

The pilots are sitting there waiting for the cabin to be ready. Heck, I'm doing that and we only have to de-plane 50 and board 50 people, no different from the CRJ you flew.

On a 737 it's even easier because the flight plan is in and ready to go as soon as they arrive, the walk-around can be waived, etc. It doesn't take rushing pilots to turn the plane in 20 minutes, it takes rushing passengers.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Nick

The pilots are sitting there waiting for the cabin to be ready. Heck, I'm doing that and we only have to de-plane 50 and board 50 people, no different from the CRJ you flew.

How 'bout the beginning of your duty day? I used to see it in JAN all the time because we parked right next to SWA. The PM crew showed up in the afternoon to take a plane that had a 20 minute turn scheduled. The copilot actually waits down on the ramp so he can do the quickest walkaround I've ever seen as soon as the plane pulls in, and he starts it before the engines are even spooling down! Then he needs to rush upstairs, get settled, get the ATIS and clearance, program the box, CA has to brief the FAs, etc... It's ridiculous.

the walk-around can be waived

And this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Waiving a preflight to get a flight out on time is BS. My Chief Pilot would beat me with a rubber hose if I didn't do a preflight.

[AP2B]

Just to add another observation to the mix; Southwest was the only place we could position our rampmasters prior to the aircraft reaching the gate. The fuel truck lanes are painted up, and it was probably safer than pulling up to a wing. It certainly wasn't dangerous imo. Those guys work their butts off and they were DEFINITELY the coolest people to shoot the bull with between flights. I think I only remember one consistently grumpy dood.

I like Southwest, but If you say it's not the norm for them to taxi like a bat out of hell, you haven't watched them move about the ramp very much. I'd try to race them on the parallel service roads but our trucks were governed. I kid.......not.

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

How 'bout the beginning of your duty day? I used to see it in JAN all the time because we parked right next to SWA. The PM crew showed up in the afternoon to take a plane that had a 20 minute turn scheduled. The copilot actually waits down on the ramp so he can do the quickest walkaround I've ever seen as soon as the plane pulls in, and he starts it before the engines are even spooling down!

We do this all the time. The FO for the outgoing flight will wait downstairs as the plane pulls in to do his or her preflight. Why waste a few minutes chillin' out in the jetway? Get the walkaround done, so you can go upstairs and do your interior preflight. I don't know about your airplane, but we can get ATIS, get clearance, enter our flight plan, and do the weight and balance in about ten minutes. That is about as long as it takes to board 50 passengers. I'm not talking about cutting corners, either. I'm talking enter the flight plan, check it against the paper release, do a departure briefing, and so forth. It's about being deliberate in your actions, and doing things in a defined sequence to maximize efficiency.

For instance: In a 20-minute turn, I can do my through flight checks, check the release for accuracy, enter the flight plan, and get ATIS all while the passengers are deplaning. Why just sit there? I'd love to say goodbye to the customers, but I'd also like to do my duties up front so I can go use a real bathroom, get a coffee, help the flight attendant, and get the next customers out on-time.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

And this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Waiving a preflight to get a flight out on time is BS. My Chief Pilot would beat me with a rubber hose if I didn't do a preflight.

I believe he is talking about the maintenance bases when mechanics do the exterior preflight. SWA is not the only airline that does this.

But like you said, agree to disagree. As long as our customers are safe, comfortable, and happy, then the techniques we use to accomplish our job are inconsequential.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

I can do my through flight checks, check the release for accuracy, enter the flight plan, and get ATIS all while the passengers are deplaning. Why just sit there? I'd love to say goodbye to the customers, but I'd also like to do my duties up front so I can go use a real bathroom, get a coffee, help the flight attendant, and get the next customers out on-time.

Personally, I like to say goodbye to the people, plus do all of the above without being in any hurry. That usually means we need a 30 minute turn at least. Plus I like at least one 45-60 minute turn during the day so I don't have to delay a flight to grab lunch. Just doesn't happen at SWA.

[wheelsup]

"Personally" works for you. For those that wish to work hard and play hard, SWA fits the bill. Since I only get paid to fly, and SWA pilots fly more and make 50% more than the Airtran guys, I know where I'd prefer to end up. Subject to change of course.

[PCL_128]

Yep, if you want to work hard, then SWA is for you. I prefer to sit on my ass and collect a paycheck.

But we don't make 50% less, BTW.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.

Disagree. Maybe on the first flight of the day it takes a little longer, but I rarely to show up to a plane and need the entire 20-30 minutes it takes to get the flight out on time. The few times it has taken longer is b/c something is screwed up.

Now, when I worked at SWA, we'd routinely turn a plane in 30 minutes (not 20. They were SCHEDULED for 30 minutes. The 20 minute scheduled turns went away a while ago). Full off, full on. No problem. Never felt "rushed." The key is pre-planning. If you get your stuff set up before the flight gets there, it's a non-event to get the plane turned quickly. The problem I see at a lot of other airlines is the CSAs, rampers, etc come strolling out to the plane as it's coming around the corner, have no idea what's coming off and no idea what's going on the plane. What happens is they wind up rushing around trying to find equipment to do the job. THAT causes people to rush. Thinking ahead and having things set up before the plane gets there is just common sense, and THAT is what SWA teaches the rampers at least. Doesn't sound like a culture of rushing people. Sounds like a culture of being prepared.

[JDMcFly]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Chicaga, we obviously aren't going to agree on this, so no need to keep going. I consider 20 minute turn times and compressed block times to be "rushing" pilots. You obviously disagree. Have fun at SWA if that's where you end up. I'll be enjoying my 45 minute turns and 3 legs a day.

Heh. I am currently reading Nuts and thinking about the famous '10 minute turns'. I couldn't help but think of this thread.

[mtsu_av8er]

Anybody that is successful MUST be unsafe.

[RedBelly]

PCL,

I have to hand it to you... you have elevated stereotyping to an artform!

[bartman]

Originally Posted by JDMcFly

Heh. I am currently reading Nuts and thinking about the famous '10 minute turns'. I couldn't help but think of this thread.

Me too. Pretty good read.

[kellwolf]

According to an article in USA Today, sounds like the FAA might have known about what was going on at SWA. Question is, can they say "Yeah that's fine" and then fine them $10 million later for doing what they said was okay.

The real issue is what happens when the FAA inspectors get too chummy with management. Could have happend at SWA, I think it's DEFINATELY happened at PCL.

[PCL_128]

The FAA didn't know, their PMI did. That's a big difference. The PMI has zero authority to authorize deviations from required inspections and ADs. This is identical to the excuse that JetBlue used. "Well, our POI told us that we could blatantly violate the pilot flight time limitations, so we thought it was ok."

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

This is identical to the excuse that JetBlue used. "Well, our POI told us that we could blatantly violate the pilot flight time limitations, so we thought it was ok."

Exactly. Those scumbags KNEW what the limitations were, yet flew passenger flights in violation of the FARs. There should have been 27 pilot licenses pulled over that one.

[brent p h]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

I'm sure SWA isn't the only airline with these types of maintenance issues.

Just as long as the flying public gets their $49 fares so they can visit grandma......

-The "Greyhound of the skies"? LOL

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Exactly. Those scumbags KNEW what the limitations were, yet flew passenger flights in violation of the FARs. There should have been 27 pilot licenses pulled over that one.

Let's hope your company never decides to go on their own, have the "FAA bless this" and then tell you to do it. This is a UNION issue, along with FAA, and company. Why would the most vocal union guy say something like this and not bring the union in on this issue??????????

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

Let's hope your company never decides to go on their own, have the "FAA bless this" and then tell you to do it. This is a UNION issue, along with FAA, and company. Why would the most vocal union guy say something like this and not bring the union in on this issue??????????

JetBlue doesn't have a union.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Exactly. Those scumbags KNEW what the limitations were, yet flew passenger flights in violation of the FARs. There should have been 27 pilot licenses pulled over that one.

This is either one of the funnest or saddest things you have ever said.

Isn't there a saying about people in glass houses.

Can we say flight 261 your company killed 88 people Southwest: None