Log book lies

faceof5 · March 4th, 2008, 18:07

What keeps pilots from logging time that hasn't actually been flown?

Anyone can simply say they flew a certain plane (which is actual with an actual N#) to any airport for any length of time.

I know there is a slang term for such type of time logging.

Anyways, how do the regionals or any company hiring a pilot spot this or account for this type of deceitfulness?

Can a pilot be caught in a interview?

I'm not saying I have any plan on doing such a thing, I was just thinking about it and I'm sure many pilots have gotten away with 10s' of hours of free time.

Thanks!

SpiraMirabilis · March 4th, 2008, 18:15

The fact that your certificates can and will be revoked if you do this primarily.

JA Yawd Bwoy · March 4th, 2008, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

The fact that your certificates can and will be revoked if you do this primarily.

, I would never do that.

Clocks · March 4th, 2008, 18:20

How much could a pilot possibly pencil-fly? Maybe the majority of the multi time? So they'd save about $8000 and risk the $30,000-50,000 they already spent, plus (hopefully) never flying professionally again.

It's not worth it.

Kristie · March 4th, 2008, 18:20

of course he's not.. he already stated that in his post.

you don't want to pull that crap... license revoked means gone forever!

mojo6911 · March 4th, 2008, 18:25

Jesus God shall smite thee, so shall the FAA.

faceof5 · March 4th, 2008, 18:28

I understand the potential penalties. But I'm curious how you can be caught and how they look for it if they do.

bap327 · March 4th, 2008, 19:09

integrity

Kristie · March 4th, 2008, 19:12

From what i hear, they do back checks on logbooks if they can find the flight school and/or CFI that signed off.

MikeOH58 · March 4th, 2008, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceof5

I understand the potential penalties. But I'm curious how you can be caught and how they look for it if they do.

Simple...You claim to have "X" amount of hours and you go to an interview, and just don't have the basic minimal experience and knowledge that any pilot with those amount of hours would have....

Another one i've heard on here last year was that some guy was listening to liveatc, and used N numbers he heard over the net....Apparantly one of the interviewers owned or had a connection to a particular N number, and knew this guy had nothing to do with it.

MikeOH58 · March 4th, 2008, 19:17

If the FAA were investigating a logbook I think they would also look for anomaly's...Strange patterns...Things that just look way out of the ordinary.

wheelsup · March 4th, 2008, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristie

From what i hear, they do back checks on logbooks if they can find the flight school and/or CFI that signed off.

Background checks at regionals certainly don't get that detailed, at least not here. They're not going to ask for a printout of your receipts to verify.

Honestly, nothing would really be preventing someone from "pencil whipping" time in their books, especially if you do it discreetly. I've known a handful of people who have done it, one is flying a Falcon for a Fortune 500 company. He pencil whipped some multi time while instructing in order to meet insurance mins to do charter in a twin, then moved on from there.

I don't recommend it, but to answer your question, it's been done before. It's certainly possible to get caught for doing anything, but in my experience at interviews they really only look at when you got your certificates, how long it took you to solo, get your PPL, instrument, multi, etc. I always thought they were looking at things like it took someone 60 hours to solo, then 150 hours to get their PPL, and 2 failed checkrides to do it. Stuff like that. They'd really have no way to see if you really flew N123SP on 6/5/2003 for 1.2.

Velocipede · March 4th, 2008, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clocks

How much could a pilot possibly pencil-fly?

This is a true story. Back in one of my old Navy squadrons, I was the de facto logs and records clerk as well as the Scheduling Officer. I logged all the pilot's flight time every day.

We had a guy who got invited for a major airline interview, but as an ex-helicopter pilot, he was afraid he didn't have enough fixed wing flight time. One Friday afternoon, he comes in, checks out his logbook and asked, "Where do you keep the new logs?"

I told him. As he was leaving, I jokingly said, "Don't forget to change pens every once in awhile."

Monday when I opened his logbook, there was not a single instance of my handwriting in it.

He got hired by Pan Am. And the colloquial term for that is either "Parker P-51" or "Boeing ballpoint" time.

Quote:

It's not worth it.

If he ever gets caught, that's the end of his airline career considering PRIA.

MikeOH58 · March 4th, 2008, 19:30

During interviews do airlines really give a crap how long it took someone to solo like you said whels? I can understand this happening with guys going to the airlines with very low time, but if you were to go with ATP mins, I'd think there would be a lot more important things in the preceeding 1,500 hours than solo.

mojo6911 · March 4th, 2008, 19:34

Its not unheard of to have an FAA logbook, and one for insurance requirements with more time in it.

milski · March 4th, 2008, 19:57

The flightschool where I work has receipts and aircraft logs (the sheet where you put out/in hobs/tach data) since at least 1998 and probably even further back, since there is a second row of boxes behind these. If somebody wanted and they were interested in cooperating they could show easily that you did or did not fly the aircraft at that date. I am not aware of that ever happening though.

wheelsup · March 4th, 2008, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

During interviews do airlines really give a crap how long it took someone to solo like you said whels? I can understand this happening with guys going to the airlines with very low time, but if you were to go with ATP mins, I'd think there would be a lot more important things in the preceeding 1,500 hours than solo.

That's what they looked at in one of my interviews, and I had 2000 TT and ATP mins. In fact that's about the only thing they looked over on my logbooks.

They're looking for red flags. Think about what I wrote - if it took someone 60 hours to solo, 150 hours to get their private, and they failed it twice, wouldn't that peak your interest? At least to ask why?

Chief Captain · March 4th, 2008, 20:30

There's ALWAYS a paper trail. You say you did 1.5 hrs from KOPF to KMCO on Mar 4 2008 in N12345 with 1hr IMC. They go and check the data, and find that all of florida was VMC on that day, and no ATC centers have a record of your tail number, and the school doesn't have a record of you renting the plane. Your career ends before it starts. DO NOT DO IT!

v1valarob · March 4th, 2008, 20:39

I think most pilots are pretty proud of their logbooks. I know I am of mine, and am very meticulous with it. I only use one type of pen, and try to write everything in the exact same way. If I where to even think I had .1 in their that may not be true, I would feel dirty. haha

I think this is how **most** pilots feel when it comes to their time.

-Rob

wheelsup · March 4th, 2008, 20:42

Chief,

Who is "they"? Why are "they" going back to check the data? Really no one cares unless you draw attention to yourself to give "them" a reason to look at your history. Most airplanes are registered under business names anyway structured as leasebacks. "They" would be hard pressed to find out what school you even rented that plane from.

Not saying it hasn't happened, but the chances are pretty small.

Minnesota_Flyer · March 4th, 2008, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Chief,

Who is "they"? Why are "they" going back to check the data? Really no one cares unless you draw attention to yourself to give "them" a reason to look at your history. Most airplanes are registered under business names anyway structured as leasebacks. "They" would be hard pressed to find out what school you even rented that plane from.

Not saying it hasn't happened, but the chances are pretty small.

FAA. The chances are probably pretty small of ever getting caught, and I'm sure many have gotten away with logging some P(arker)-51 time. However, if the FAA ever did start looking at your logbook (say you had the misfortune to scrape a wing or something) and figured out that your time isn't all real, you would be lucky to get out of it only losing your licenses and career. Not a chance I'm willing to take.

bap327's answer is best anyway.

MidlifeFlyer · March 4th, 2008, 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceof5

I understand the potential penalties. But I'm curious how you can be caught and how they look for it if they do.

Here's what happens. The guy who seriously pads the logbook is also the guy who doesn't give a crap about any other rules either. So there's a pretty good chance that he is going to screw up in a way that calls attention to himself - land gear up, bust an altitude - in a way that will get the FAA interested in looking at him and his logbook. Once they look at it - remember, they're already interested - they will look for the strange stuff and start checking it out.

wheelsup · March 4th, 2008, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

FAA.

Yes! Exactly! The FAA doesn't look at your logbooks in an interview (unless you are interviewing at the FAA!).

I think CFI's and pilots in general invent stories to scare people away from doing the wrong thing, instead of saying "we don't make up logbook time because we just don't". Of course, as humans, we often need to have a consequence associated with doing something wrong in order to stop us from actually doing it...

Chief Captain · March 4th, 2008, 21:17

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
Subpart A—General
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§ 61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;
(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...1.1.37&idno=14

faceof5 · March 4th, 2008, 21:24

I don't really believe anyoe whether the FAA or an airline would have reason to investigate your time. I especially can't imagine an airline wanting to check into it and waste their time even if you do poorly in an interview or sim. They would probably just not offer you a position and move on.

I know of a guy that drives for AE and he penicled flew a lot of single engine VFR to build his total time. But his certificate and rating times were all legit and so was his multi time. But now that I think about it he could have just as easily added more multi time.