Log book lies

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

LOL yeah and they *could* call your mom and tell her what a crappy pilot you are. Seriously, lay off the scare tactics. We don't log time in our logbooks because it's not the professional thing to do. It has nothing to do with a regional airline telling the FAA they think a guy who interviewed flew so poorly that he pencil whipped time. Get real buddy! At least say something people will believe it you're trying to scare them.

[cfii2007]

Let's say for example you were a CFI and you had a student doing this.....how would you handle it?

[minitour]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

Let's say for example you were a CFI and you had a student doing this.....how would you handle it?

Tell them
1. They need to re-think it and take that time out of their logbook.

2. I'm done with them.

3. If I find out they didn't take the false entries out of their logbook, I'm making a quick call to the FSDO.

I have zero tolerance for this crap.

-mini

[Chief Captain]

The CFI has to sign the logbook entry. I'd just refuse to sign.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

No you cannot. Falsely logging time is just as illegal for the student pilot as the airline captain 2 weeks from retirement.

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or...

Careful how you choose to chunk sentences there; I think that one is best chunked like this:

(2) [Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry] [in any logbook, record, or report] [that is required to be kept, made, or used] [to show compliance with any requirement] [for the issuance or exercise of the privileges] [of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part]

In particular, "kept, made or used" is a single statement of utility, I'd bet.

[Chief Captain]

Here's another interesting one:

Say you're the student, and your CFI wants/tries to pad your logbook. What do you do?

BTW, that PDF from the NTSB was sobering. Everybody should give it a read.

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

The CFI has to sign the logbook entry. I'd just refuse to sign.

The CFI in question has already made the endorsement for that lesson, the student is just going back and altering the time.

I agree.....if I was the CFI, I'd be pretty pissed.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

This thread is unbelievable!! It seems like there is tacit approval of padding a logbook from many of the members of this forum.

It's no wonder America is becoming a second rate country. The moral and ethical makeup of it's citizens is in decline.

If you ever pad your logbook make sure not to ever call yourself a professional pilot. A pretender maybe, but certainly not professional.



Typhoonpilot

That certainly isn't what jtrain and I are advocating; we just like playing Devil's Advocate because we like to debate.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

The CFI in question has already made the endorsement for that lesson, the student is just going back and altering the time.

I agree.....if I was the CFI, I'd be pretty pissed.

If I found out they were padding their own time, I would let them know about the regulations, and penalties and leave it at that. If they were changing my previously logged flights, I would be writing a letter to the FSDO right away.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

The CFI has to sign the logbook entry. I'd just refuse to sign.

I've signed hundreds of logbook lines that were filled out after the fact by the student. I could care less what they put in *their* logbook. Anyone can go back and edit that 1.8 dual cross country I wrote in after the fact to show 4.8 pretty easily and add in a few more airports...it's not my job to play sheriff.

I certainly wouldn't be pissed, and I wouldn't be writing any letters to the FSDO either, that's just asking for them to audit *your* logbook. But I agree, I'd sever all ties to the student due to "personal reasons". Chances are, no student will ever touch a line that you have signed, they will be padding their own solo entries.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

This thread is unbelievable!! It seems like there is tacit approval of padding a logbook from many of the members of this forum.

It's no wonder America is becoming a second rate country. The moral and ethical makeup of it's citizens is in decline.

If you ever pad your logbook make sure not to ever call yourself a professional pilot. A pretender maybe, but certainly not professional.



Typhoonpilot

Don't do it, don't tolerate it.

[ryanmickG]

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

The CFI has to sign the logbook entry. I'd just refuse to sign.

You cant refuse to sign a logbook entry if you did the dual flight with them.

[Chief Captain]

I'm not a CFI yet, but I sure as hell would refuse. My understanding is that part of the reason the sig is there is to certify that I have given X hours of instruction. I'm pretty sure the FAA would come down just as hard (or harder) on the CFI if they found out.

[Chief Captain]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

The CFI in question has already made the endorsement for that lesson, the student is just going back and altering the time.

I agree.....if I was the CFI, I'd be pretty pissed.

As the CFI, I doubt I'd have much to worry about. If they check the student's log against mine and note a difference, it's easy to go check records kept in the school's office. Two against one will not look good for the student.

[Chief Captain]

Now I realize that not all pilots plan to go all the way to the ATPL, but I thought I'd remind folks of an oft overlooked regulation.

Subpart G—Airline Transport Pilots

§ 61.153 Eligibility requirements: General.

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Be at least 23 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(c) Be of good moral character;
(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=9dd18f565bfdce1d77d64ca8ff347727&rg n=div6&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.7&idno=14

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

This thread is unbelievable!! It seems like there is tacit approval of padding a logbook from many of the members of this forum.

I don't think that's the case. I don't' think the question be whether it's right or it's wrong, but whether or not people get away with it. And there's no doubt that they do.

But here's a thought: Go to you local courthouse - the general criiminal sessions. Spend a day or two there and watch the array of people being brought in to plead not guilty and have their cases set. And watch the number of folks who enter guilty pleads to everything fro minor traffic offenses to major felonies. If you're in a small town where there is very little of this, consider yourself lucky. But either way, ask yourself theses questions:

1. How many of them thought they'd get caught?
1a. (How many of them did the same thing before and didn't get caught?)
2. How many others who did the same things didn't get caught?
3. Which group do you want to be in?
(a) 1.
(b) 2..
(c) Neither 1 or 2.

[wheelsup]

Chief, since you aren't an instructor I'm going to give you a home work assignment.

Why does an instructor sign a logbook entry? Is it:

A) To certify the logbook entry is correct?
B) Or merely to certify that he/she gave the student instruction on that flight?

Again, keep in mind you cannot control what the pilot does with the logbook once it leaves your hands.

[ryanmickG]

The point is if you are an instructor and you get a commercial student its not your job to make sure all the previous flights are legit. If you do give him instruction and refuse to to sign the logbook entry then you are in the wrong. It is your responsibility to certify the dual received.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Chief, since you aren't an instructor I'm going to give you a home work assignment.

Why does an instructor sign a logbook entry? Is it:

A) To certify the logbook entry is correct?
B) Or merely to certify that he/she gave the student instruction on that flight?

Again, keep in mind you cannot control what the pilot does with the logbook once it leaves your hands.

I guess I'm missing the point. I'd say the answer is a combination of A & B. I would not endorse the logbook of a student unless I was satisfied that the "description of the training given, the length of the training lesson" required by 61.51(h)(2)(ii) was accurate. Are you saying that if the student wrote in his logbook for a session in a 172 "rolls and hammerhead stalls 300 ft above Jone's backyard weekend barbecue" you think you'd be required to sign it?

And I not sure what the ability of the student to falsify the entry after the fact has to do with what you sign at the time you sign it.

[wheelsup]

Mark, the point is my signature doesn't verify what is written in the logbook. According to part 61 instructors are (paraphrased) "required to sign the logbook of anyone they give instruction to". How can you control what the student writes in the logbook?

It's a good idea to write what you do in your own logbook for legal sake but I would think a good lawyer could punch holes in what's written in a student's logbook in a heartbeat.

I would relate an instructor's signature in a logbook to a notary public's signature. When they notarize a document, they aren't saying it's correct, just that the person who signed is really that person. Same idea.

[MidlifeFlyer]

What can I say. I disagree with your point. The regulatory requirement for an instructor to "sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training" is not in a vacuum. It's there to verify that trainig requirements were in fact met, not to have students collect CFI autographs.

I don't see the notary's job of verifying that the person signingis in fact the person signing and taking the person's oath as in the least equivalent.

[wheelsup]

Situation: You sign a student's logbook and then they change it after the fact from 1.8 to 4.8 TT. What is in the logbook, with your signature, is incorrect. Are you in trouble as far as the FAA is concerned? Who signs the logbook on each page to verify it's validity? The owner of the logbook, or the CFI?

I agree with you in principle with signing an obvious incorrect entry. But remember you aren't certifying the time logged, just that you did training. It's up to the logbook owner to see that the entries are correct.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

The CFI in question has already made the endorsement for that lesson, the student is just going back and altering the time.

I agree.....if I was the CFI, I'd be pretty pissed.

Phone call to the FSDO. My signature is in there and the record is being altered. I don't know what else is being altered, forged or falsified. Solo endorsements? Knowledge exam? Practical test?

If I ever found out a student had altered the information from a lesson, I wouldn't hesitate to make a call (and if that produced no results, a visit) to the FSDO and Regional if necessary.

Not a lot as a CFI gets under my skin...just the thought of that happening would have to top the list.

Dayum...I thought you just meant the CFI was finding false entries in the book when skimming through. I didn't realize the student was changing the lesson info. That's pretty f'd up right there.

-mini

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ryanmickG

The point is if you are an instructor and you get a commercial student its not your job to make sure all the previous flights are legit.

Absolutely correct.......and how would you? Unless you knew every single flight that student had conducted, you'd never know if the entry was false or not.

However...if you do know (know...not "think") that an entry(ies) is/are false, you have the ability and the responsibility as a professional to say something to the pilot.

Those pilots that fake it are screwing you, me and everyone else that busted their balls to do it the right way....not themselves. That's why I don't tolerate it.

-mini

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Situation: You sign a student's logbook and then they change it after the fact from 1.8 to 4.8 TT. What is in the logbook, with your signature, is incorrect. Are you in trouble as far as the FAA is concerned? Who signs the logbook on each page to verify it's validity? The owner of the logbook, or the CFI?

I agree with you in principle with signing an obvious incorrect entry. But remember you aren't certifying the time logged, just that you did training. It's up to the logbook owner to see that the entries are correct.

We obviously disagree about what we are certifying with our signature.

You've already told us what you think the CFI is =not= certifying with that signature - not the time, not the maneuvers that were covered, not whether it was a cross country flight. So, exactly what do you think the CFI is certifying with his =only= required signature anywhere other than on an 8710? That he gave at least 1 second of instruction on unspecified stuff?

You apparently think that as instructors the FAA would not look very closely at us if it were discovered that a student pilot's logbook had padded training time and training coverage entries. Again, all I can say is we can agree to disagree. Your question "The owner of the logbook, or the CFI?" suggests you think that it's one or the other. I think the answer is "both."

So at that inquiry, you are asked, "Didn't you see that your student added 3 hours to that dual cross country flight?" If you are satisfied with the answer, "Yeah, I saw it. I didn't ask for a correction. Didn't cross out my signature. Instead, I continued to add my signature to new entries. I figured what the ****. Not my problem," you're welcome to go for it.

BTW, you ask, "Who signs the logbook on each page to verify it's validity?" Can you show us the regulation that requires the logbook owner to sign each page? Or anything in the logbook for that matter?