Log book lies - Page 2

JaceTheAce · March 4th, 2008, 21:52

It's called "Bic Time" - and it's not very difficult to find out, so don't do it!

Chief Captain · March 4th, 2008, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceof5

I don't really believe anyoe whether the FAA or an airline would have reason to investigate your time. I especially can't imagine an airline wanting to check into it and waste their time even if you do poorly in an interview or sim. They would probably just not offer you a position and move on.

Or they could forward your info to the FAA. There's no statute of limitations on this one, so imagine if you had a minor accident after you got your ATP, and the FAA investigates and found that you had false hours in your log pre-CPL...you're done. Not going to be in another cockpit ever again. Well maybe- if you go to another country and start from SCRATCH i.e. ZERO time.

wheelsup · March 4th, 2008, 23:04

LOL yeah and they *could* call your mom and tell her what a crappy pilot you are. Seriously, lay off the scare tactics. We don't log time in our logbooks because it's not the professional thing to do. It has nothing to do with a regional airline telling the FAA they think a guy who interviewed flew so poorly that he pencil whipped time. Get real buddy! At least say something people will believe it you're trying to scare them.

faceof5 · March 4th, 2008, 23:14

I agree with you wheelsup. I don't see why an airline would take the time to report a pilot candidate to the FAA based on poor sim flying.

The only scenario I could imagine happening is if a ppl logged a bunch of bic time before getting his instrument and commercial and then flying poorly during his inst or comm training with high time could reaise suspicion and then maybe cause an ####### instructor or jerk examiner to pry into your flight time.

MikeOH58 · March 4th, 2008, 23:18

I don't know if you are referring back to what I said about flying poorly. If so, I didn't mean that flying poorly during an interview would ever get you caught with the FAA. But at the ridicously low time airlines like piedmont, if you show up claiming to have 250 hours and fly at the level of a student pilot, it may will prolly raise the BS flag and get you sent home without a job.

wheelsup · March 4th, 2008, 23:28

Of course, if you don't pass the sim you don't get a job, no matter if you have 250 hours, 100 of which was pencil whipped or 25,000 hours of true flight time.

Vyse · March 4th, 2008, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

There's ALWAYS a paper trail. You say you did 1.5 hrs from KOPF to KMCO on Mar 4 2008 in N12345 with 1hr IMC. They go and check the data, and find that all of florida was VMC on that day, and no ATC centers have a record of your tail number, and the school doesn't have a record of you renting the plane. Your career ends before it starts. DO NOT DO IT!

This is exactly what the FAA did when they investigated a group of CFIs at a flight school suspected of falsifying their logbook time. They got the school's rental records and compared them with the claimed entries. All the CFIs had all of their certs revoked.

madmax · March 5th, 2008, 00:00

I have never heard that Cert's get revoked until this thread. It looks like regs state that you are in violation for making up "required" entries for currency and such. So can't you argue that your currency was actually flown, but the other times made up?

NJA_Capt · March 5th, 2008, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceof5

I understand the potential penalties. But I'm curious how you can be caught and how they look for it if they do.

This is a small community, more than one person has been caught by using an N number that happened to belong to the interviewer or his "friend." The first time the pilot is ask to demonstrate his "skills" his true colors will most likely show through. Also through questioning the systems of the plane the applicant "appears" to have a lot of time in. Most FAR135 instructors and check airmen can tell on the first flight whether a pilot has 1200 hours or says he has 1200 hours.

BajtheJino · March 5th, 2008, 00:23

There are FAA inspectors behind every bush at every airfield and log books will be torn apart by a crack team of inspectors that will track down every plane ever flown. Get it?

trafficinsight · March 5th, 2008, 03:31

You only have to live with yourself.

Wing_96 · March 5th, 2008, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bap327

integrity

Honesty, character, and pride to name a few others.

MidlifeFlyer · March 5th, 2008, 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

I have never heard that Cert's get revoked until this thread. It looks like regs state that you are in violation for making up "required" entries for currency and such. So can't you argue that your currency was actually flown, but the other times made up?

The reg is 61.59. The standard penalty for a violation according to the FAA's Compliance and Enforcement Program guidelines is revocation of all pilot certificates and ratings.

A revocation order usually includes an end date, after which, the pilot may start to reapply, beginning with taking the private checkride.

No, you can't argue that your currency was fine but the other times were made up. Well, actually you can =argue= anything, but there are NTSB decisions where the pilot tried exactly that - =very= unsuccessfully.

Bumblebee · March 5th, 2008, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bap327

integrity

yeah that!

and shaving

bigtime209 · March 5th, 2008, 14:29

Yeah guys, he's just wondering. He's not actually considering pencil-whipping some time. He's just wants to know if people can get caught doing it out of curiosity...

Don't do it buddy.

aloft · March 5th, 2008, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
Subpart A—General
Browse Previous | Browse Next

§ 61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;
(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

This seems to suggest that padding a logbook is only illegal if you use the bogus hours for applying for a certificate or rating, or to show currency.

It probably wouldn't take much to convince a judge that it also amounts to insurance fraud, if it's done to circumvent insurance mins.

jtrain609 · March 5th, 2008, 15:04

You won't get caught, I know too many people who have done it at one time or another and they have very successful careers.

gtpilot · March 5th, 2008, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

This seems to suggest that padding a logbook is only illegal if you use the bogus hours for applying for a certificate or rating, or to show currency.

Problem being, if you use BIC time to apply to an airline or 135 op, sooner or later you're using it to apply for your ATP and down you go!

jtrain609 · March 5th, 2008, 15:24

Again, you'll never get caught. Everybody's got these horror stories about how they know "this guy" who got his certificates ripped away from him, but there are A TON of people who have logged some BIC time and never had any problems with it.

Ask me about at NJC.

gtpilot · March 5th, 2008, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Again, you'll never get caught. Everybody's got these horror stories about how they know "this guy" who got his certificates ripped away from him, but there are A TON of people who have logged some BIC time and never had any problems with it.

Ask me about at NJC.

Realizing that you're just playing devil's advocate, the problem in my view isn't with the relatively slim chance of becoming 'this guy' who got his certificates revoked, the problem is with the 100% chance becoming 'that guy' who doesn't have the moral fortitude to do the right thing! Just because it is unlikely you'll get caught, doesn't mean it should be done.

Soooooo......NJC?

Velocipede · March 5th, 2008, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtpilot

Just because it is unlikely you'll get caught, doesn't mean it should be done.

Anyone who thinks your average pilot doesn't subscribe to moral relativism doesn't know many pilots.

flyguy · March 5th, 2008, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

I have never heard that Cert's get revoked until this thread. It looks like regs state that you are in violation for making up "required" entries for currency and such. So can't you argue that your currency was actually flown, but the other times made up?

Well if you read the reg carefully it says "Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook....OR....blah blah blah records to show currency etc." The key word here is OR. If it is in your logbook, it has to be legit. In fact, if you have some other record to show curency, you are not even required to keep a logbook, but according to this reg, if you do choose to keep one for whatever reason (airline interview perhaps) it must be legit.

faceof5 · March 5th, 2008, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtpilot

Problem being, if you use BIC time to apply to an airline or 135 op, sooner or later you're using it to apply for your ATP and down you go!

How would you get caught when applying for your ATP and not elsewhere?

gtpilot · March 5th, 2008, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceof5

How would you get caught when applying for your ATP and not elsewhere?

aloft suggested that padding the log book would only get you in trouble when applying for a new certificate per 61.59. Wasn't saying you'd get caught.

Quote:

Anyone who thinks your average pilot doesn't subscribe to moral relativism doesn't know many pilots.

Perhaps - while I have flown with a few jerks, most of the pilots I've flown with are and were professional.

Chief Captain · March 5th, 2008, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

This seems to suggest that padding a logbook is only illegal if you use the bogus hours for applying for a certificate or rating, or to show currency.

No you cannot. Falsely logging time is just as illegal for the student pilot as the airline captain 2 weeks from retirement.

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or...