VFR On Top

[MFT1Air]

Trying to figure out how to log the time.

2.4 hours total time in flight. Between the 1.2 and 2.0 timeperiod, minimums were 1400 feet with tops at 3500, so I went higher to avoid the clouds.

How do I log the time? on top? What about the time I transitioned to higher?

[SIUav8er]

Its VFR. You could write in the comments/remarks section of the logbook about the weather, but it doesnt change the type of flight rules you were opperating under. Unless you went through the clouds...

[GUNIT]

Regardless of whether or not you were on an IFR flight plan, you weren't in IMC so you wouldn't log the time as actual. I believe with VFR on top there is really no special logging.

(this is all also assuming you weren't under the hood w/ a safety pilot in which case you could log simulated instrument.)

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Trying to figure out how to log the time.

2.4 hours total time in flight. Between the 1.2 and 2.0 timeperiod, minimums were 1400 feet with tops at 3500, so I went higher to avoid the clouds.

How do I log the time? on top? What about the time I transitioned to higher?

Where you ever in the clouds? You only log IFR time when you were using instruments for reference (in clouds, moonless night, etc.). If you climbed above the clouds and remained VFR, then it would be VFR. If you couldn't see the ground below (or see it somewhere in your slight) you need to be in communication with someone.

NOTE: I am not a CFI, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few nights ago.

Safe Flights!

[MidlifeFlyer]

Exactly what are you asking? I'm not aware of any "on top" categories in FAR 61.51 or columns for it in a logbook.

If you're talking about logging "actual instrument" time, as others point out, that reserved exclusively for times that you were in conditions where you needed to rely on the instruments in order to maintain control of the aircarft - to keep the shiny side up.

complex?

If you couldn't see the ground below (or see it somewhere in your slight) you need to be in communication with someone.

What does that mean? If you are operating under ifr, you maintain radio communication throughout and if you are operating vfr you don't need to talk to anyone unless you are in airspace that requires communication.

[TXaviator]

it is my understanding that this is not actually what one would call "VFR on top" as that implies an earlier IFR clearance through a BKN or OVC cloud layer flying solely by reference to instruments. (which thus would require an instrument rating)

this flight seems to just be VFR. VFR with some doodling about above some clouds, but still VFR.

note: i enjoy getting up above the clouds VFR all the time, so long is there are plenty of openings to get back down!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Exactly what are you asking? I'm not aware of any "on top" categories in FAR 61.51 or columns for it in a logbook.

If you're talking about logging "actual instrument" time, as others point out, that reserved exclusively for times that you were in conditions where you needed to rely on the instruments in order to maintain control of the aircarft - to keep the shiny side up.

complex?
What does that mean? If you are operating under ifr, you maintain radio communication throughout and if you are operating vfr you don't need to talk to anyone unless you are in airspace that requires communication.

Well, if one is familiar with the Gulf Coast area, clouds tend to roll in between LCH and EFD which is what I was flying. Between ORG and T00, at 1815, I was unable to flying in the clouds and the fire haze, so I climbed to 4500 to clear the clouds. I was "flight following" with Beaumont TRSA, so they gave me permission to climb. I logged the actual time transitioning up through the clouds. By then, it was dark and I was flying with the glow from the lights of the city underneath the clouds until I left area where the clouds had formed. I made a comment in the comments portion, but I wasn't certain. Hence, my reason to ask.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Well, if one is familiar with the Gulf Coast area, clouds tend to roll in between LCH and EFD which is what I was flying. Between ORG and T00, at 1815, I was unable to flying in the clouds and the fire haze, so I climbed to 4500 to clear the clouds. I was "flight following" with Beaumont TRSA, so they gave me permission to climb. I logged the actual time transitioning up through the clouds. By then, it was dark and I was flying with the glow from the lights of the city underneath the clouds until I left area where the clouds had formed. I made a comment in the comments portion, but I wasn't certain. Hence, my reason to ask.

gotcha, well yeah, the actual would go as actual, and the part with reference to the ground, would just be vfr. (in my opinion, not legal advice, etc!)

[WAFlyBoy]

You can log the time spent flying solely by reference to instruments due to meteorological phenomenon as actual instrument time. Time spent in VFR conditions above the clouds probably does not count as actual instrument time.

Please say you had an IFR clearance when you climbed "through" the clouds.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by WAFlyBoy

You can log the time spent flying solely by reference to instruments due to meteorological phenomenon as actual instrument time. Time spent in VFR conditions above the clouds probably does not count as actual instrument time.

Please say you had an IFR clearance when you climbed "through" the clouds.

Can't say. I requested from Beaumont approach to climb higher. They said yes.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Can't say. I requested from Beaumont approach to climb higher. They said yes.

Uh oh.

If you "can't say" that you were given an IFR clearance, that means you were VFR at least initially (you also mentioned that you were "flight following" which is a VFR procedure). If you "can't say" that you requested an "IFR climb" then the chances approach near certainty that you were not. "Sure, climb higher" is =not= authority to violate VFR cloud and visibility rules.

Please say your real name isn't in your profile.

[milski]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

it is my understanding that this is not actually what one would call "VFR on top" as that implies an earlier IFR clearance through a BKN or OVC cloud layer flying solely by reference to instruments.

VFR-on-top does imply (and require IFR clearance). You don't have to go throuh a layer of clouds though - you can be VFR-on-top on SKC day.

Also, if you're planning to be VFR-on-top, you can put OTP or OTP/65 (or whatever the altitude is) as altitude in your IFR flight plan.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Uh oh.

If you "can't say" that you were given an IFR clearance, that means you were VFR at least initially (you also mentioned that you were "flight following" which is a VFR procedure). If you "can't say" that you requested an "IFR climb" then the chances approach near certainty that you were not. "Sure, climb higher" is =not= authority to violate VFR cloud and visibility rules.

Please say your real name isn't in your profile.

Nice slippery slope. . .not. I won't go into the semantics of right/wrong, so help me, please. 'Source' the exact words of IFR climb in the FAR/AIM to perform an "IFR climb" when I'm on VFR traffic advisories. I need the insight.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Nice slippery slope. . .not. I won't go into the semantics of right/wrong, so help me, please. 'Source' the exact words of IFR climb in the FAR/AIM to perform an "IFR climb" when I'm on VFR traffic advisories. I need the insight.

5-5-13. VFR-on-top

a. Pilot.
1. This clearance must be requested by the pilot on an IFR flight plan, and if approved, allows the pilot the choice (subject to any ATC restrictions) to select an altitude or flight level in lieu of an assigned altitude.
NOTE-
VFR-on-top is not permitted in certain airspace areas, such as Class A airspace, certain restricted areas, etc. Consequently, IFR flights operating VFR-on-top will avoid such airspace.
REFERENCE-
AIM, IFR Clearance VFR-on-top, Paragraph 4-4-8.
AIM, IFR Separation Standards, Paragraph 4-4-11.
AIM, Position Reporting, Paragraph 5-3-2.
AIM, Additional Reports, Paragraph 5-3-3.
2. By requesting a VFR-on-top clearance, the pilot assumes the sole responsibility to be vigilant so as to see and avoid other aircraft and to:
(a) Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.159.
(b) Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from clouds criteria in 14 CFR Section 91.155, Basic VFR weather minimums.
(c) Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.
3. Should advise ATC prior to any altitude change to ensure the exchange of accurate traffic information.

- So from the above you can see two things:

1. You need to be on an IFR plan.
2. You need maintain basic cloud clearances.

How do you know if you're on an IFR plan? You must receive a clearance. If it is not a standard clearance received from an IFR plan you filed, the controller doesn't know you are asking for IFR unless you specifically say so.

As you can see, VFR on top probably wasn't what you were looking for because you weren't going to comply with cloud clearances. What you wanted was an "IFR climb to VFR conditions." After that, you could request a VFR on top once you can maintain your cloud clearances.

Another option is to request VFR over the top, which is a VFR procedure - but in that case you couldn't fly into clouds either.

At any rate, it is in your best interest when getting a "pop up" or an ad-hoc clearance to make sure it is said, and well-understood that you want, and they are giving you an IFR clearance.

Flying in NY airspace one morning while VFR, the weather got pretty bad out of nowhere. I asked for a IFR clearance from NY approach to my destination, but they said their computers were acting funny and just to climb higher for now. I told him I couldn't or else I'd be in the clouds. So he said "You are on an IFR plan now, climb to..." And that's all I needed to hear.

[TXaviator]

im not right/wronging you personally.

but it is absolutely wrong to violate VFR cloud clearance/vis minimums if you are not SPECIFICALLY on an IFR clearance.

wrong, and DANGEROUS.

im guessing (only a guess) you are not instrument rated or this might be more clear (i am not an instructor so i dont know a great way of explaining it maybe).

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

im not right/wronging you personally.

but it is absolutely wrong to violate VFR cloud clearance/vis minimums if you are not SPECIFICALLY on an IFR clearance.

wrong, and DANGEROUS.

im guessing (only a guess) you are not instrument rated or this might be more clear (i am not an instructor so i dont know a great way of explaining it maybe).

. . .and I'm not taking anything illustrated or addressed in a derogatory perspective. My point was simply trying to identify how to log the time I flew while VFR from point A to point B, and I had to climb higher to maintain VFR around dusk. My destination was clear with 10 mile vis, no clouds; airports in between had no ATIS. Heading west, clouds at 2500 made it unwise for me to maintain that altitude. I simply wished to insure the .2 actual was okay as I climbed to maintain VFR ABOVE the clouds.

[MFT1Air]

Gotcha Ian. VFR On Top is a IFR clearance.

[Baradium]

You just log it normally. You weren't in actual. If you didn't get an IFR clearance you better have not logged any actual.


VFR over the clouds is still VFR. You don't log it as instrument or any other thing.


And I suggest you do not make a habit of using VFR instructions to enter IMC. It's not even implied and it's specifically not allowed or legal. I'd aslo recommend not posting on the internet when you take such questionable actions.

[WAFlyBoy]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

My point was simply trying to identify how to log the time I flew while VFR from point A to point B, and I had to climb higher to maintain VFR around dusk. My destination was clear with 10 mile vis, no clouds; airports in between had no ATIS. Heading west, clouds at 2500 made it unwise for me to maintain that altitude. I simply wished to insure the .2 actual was okay as I climbed to maintain VFR ABOVE the clouds.

So you were in the clouds for .2 hours? Or did you maintain VFR cloud clearance at all times?

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Baradium

You just log it normally. You weren't in actual. If you didn't get an IFR clearance you better have not logged any actual.

An IFR clearance is not necessarily required to log actual IFR.

-mini

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by minitour

An IFR clearance is not necessarily required to log actual IFR.

-mini

True, but it's not usually the best idea to put evidence of an FAR violation in your logbook which is what the context of this discussion suggests.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by WAFlyBoy

So you were in the clouds for .2 hours? Or did you maintain VFR cloud clearance at all times?

Yep, it was a climb in addition to the haze caused by the government initiated fires in the area. Add to the it was dark, there's my .2

[minitour]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

True, but it's not usually the best idea to put evidence of an FAR violation in your logbook which is what the context of this discussion suggests.

Who said it's a regulation violation if you're logging actual without an IFR clearance?

I've taken off plenty at BKL when it's overcast and I promise you, I never entered a cloud and never came within 3000' of a cloud vertically and there were no clouds anywhere near me horizontally but had to use the instruments to control the aircraft.

Whether or not I was on an IFR clearance (and I was...99% of the time) is irrelevant.

If you used the gauges to keep you upright and you couldn't use any outside references, to me that sounds like instrument time.

-mini

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Nice slippery slope. . .not. I won't go into the semantics of right/wrong, so help me, please. 'Source' the exact words of IFR climb in the FAR/AIM to perform an "IFR climb" when I'm on VFR traffic advisories. I need the insight.

I'm not sure that you can find an example in the AIM, other that the many examples of being "cleared" "IFR." The transition from VFR to IFR, even just for a climb or descent, is still a pop-up IFR clearance and you would know whether you got it or not. (Remember, you are the one who "can't say" whether your were given an ifr clearance or not.)

How did the rest of the flight go? Did it sound like you were IFR or VFR? Were you cleared for an approach at your destination (even a visual one)? Did you "cancel IFR" at some point?


I can give you a sort of example of the dialog in sa situation a bit opposite to yours.. Just after Christmas, I was on a VFR flight from Leesburg, FL to Boca Raton. Around Pahokee there were the typical small cumulus. I elected to go above (I know... I've learned more about Florida clouds since then) and ended up being caught on top. After making contact with Palm Beach Approach, I told them:

Me: We're VFR above scattered to broken clouds at 8,500 30 northwest of Boca Raton. Request IFR descent into Boca.

Palm Beach. Archer XXXXX is cleared to the Boca Raton airport. Turn right heading...

[WAFlyBoy]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Yep, it was a climb in addition to the haze caused by the government initiated fires in the area. Add to the it was dark, there's my .2

LOL. I love how I asked the question as directly as possible and you can't seem to answer is succinctly without clouding (pun fully intended) what happened.

My advise: don't log any actual for this flight. (It's only .2, what's the big deal anyway?) It sounds like either you were not in IMC or your flight into IMC was a violation of FARs. Secondly, please review FAR 91.155 (VFR cloud clearance and visibility requirements) prior to your next flight.

Are you instrument rated?