SEATS/Airtankers Anyone?

[Timmy Tucker]

How does someone get into flying SEATS? I've always wanted to fly some sort of airtanker. I've heard it's best to start out as an ag pilot, but that in itself is a hard gig to get into from what I've read. I could go to an ag pilot school, but then I'd have a $15K piece of paper that still doesn't give me any real time/experience needed to get a job. Is there any specific training or experience that would make me desirable in such a small community of pilots? What say ye?


As you can tell by my sig, it's still very early in the game for me, but it's never too early to start planning. In a perfect world, I'd like to end up in my career job in either 121 cargo or a good corp gig, but I'd like to take a somewhat different route to get there.

[Timmy Tucker]

For those of you that don't know what SEATS are:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=PVqRG7anL4s


So low his gear's hitting the treetops. Pure insanity:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4G5oANIODh0&feature=related

[t-cart]

Timmy, I really dont know much about the SEAT thing. Never got into that. I was/am an ag-pilot for a while. Have you ever heard of a monthly publication called Ag Air Update? It is a monthly magazine put out mostly for ag-pilots, but they also have an aerial firefighting section, quite informative. Check it out on the web. I dont see anything wrong with your plan. Good luck.,,,,,, I did put out a tractor fire once, Dropped a couple of 600 gallon loads of water on it from the Air Tractor.

[WacoFan]

I am also veryinterested in the SEAT programs and I believe it is the future of Aerial Firefighting. T-Cart, both here and on APC, has a wealth of knowledge about AG - although he doesn't post much about those in specific. I really think that AG, and Fire Fighting are a growth industry - lots of the same things driving need for pilots - lots of people retiring and not as many to replace them (T-Cart, correct me if I am wrong). I also have a problem getting into AG because I grew up a city boy and do not have an agricultural background - but would love to hear more about it.

I think we should prevail upon T-Cart to tell us more about AG! Also, we should prevail upon Doug Taylor to provide an Ag specific forum! Doug flies for Delta - which was initially formed as "Huff-Daland Dusters" in Louisiana and was the first crop dusting outfit ever I think - they sprayed for Boo-Weevils with a modified Curtis Jenny. Delta had a crop dusting operation until the early to mid 60's I believe and then sold it off.

My interest in AG is primarily driven by the airplanes - and I love Air Tractors. If I could make a living flying big taildraggers then I am good! Plus, I am one hundred percent deaf - I hear with Cochlear Implants and would love to see if I could get an unrestricted medical certificate - but If I can't, Ag would be something you could actually do with a commercial that does not require an instrument.

Thanks - sorry for the long post!

[30West]

If you want a 121 or corp job, I would stay away fromthe SEAT, ag scene. Getting into air attack is a alot harder than you would imagine, and really requires more to get into than someone just looking for a good time on the way to the airlines would want. If you want to get into a job someday that requires instrument skills, I would recommend that you start looking for work flying planes where you actually fly more than 10 feet agl all day. Ag and all that looks like a blast, but it doesnt have anything to do with your long term goals aside from both having wings.

[t-cart]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

I am also veryinterested in the SEAT programs and I believe it is the future of Aerial Firefighting. T-Cart, both here and on APC, has a wealth of knowledge about AG - although he doesn't post much about those in specific. I really think that AG, and Fire Fighting are a growth industry - lots of the same things driving need for pilots - lots of people retiring and not as many to replace them (T-Cart, correct me if I am wrong). I also have a problem getting into AG because I grew up a city boy and do not have an agricultural background - but would love to hear more about it.

I think we should prevail upon T-Cart to tell us more about AG! Also, we should prevail upon Doug Taylor to provide an Ag specific forum! Doug flies for Delta - which was initially formed as "Huff-Daland Dusters" in Louisiana and was the first crop dusting outfit ever I think - they sprayed for Boo-Weevils with a modified Curtis Jenny. Delta had a crop dusting operation until the early to mid 60's I believe and then sold it off.

My interest in AG is primarily driven by the airplanes - and I love Air Tractors. If I could make a living flying big taildraggers then I am good! Plus, I am one hundred percent deaf - I hear with Cochlear Implants and would love to see if I could get an unrestricted medical certificate - but If I can't, Ag would be something you could actually do with a commercial that does not require an instrument.

Thanks - sorry for the long post!

Hi WacoFan, Thanks for the compliments. Yes, You are right, The ag flying industry is hard to break into. But,it is not impossible. The problem anymore is that most of the ag operations have cut their fleet size in half or more because of the turbine engines available on larger airframes, such as the Air Tractor 502,602,and 802. Also the Thrush line is expanding. In my particular case, I went from four Ag Cats to the two turbine Air Tractors and could actually could do more work with the two planes than i could with the four smaller planes. I grew up in a small city also. Nobody in my family was or is a pilot other than me,so that shouldnt hold you back. The way i broke in was ,I went and talked to the local ag pilot and told him that i wanted to get started,then proceeded to work as the ground crew for him with the understanding that he would "break me in" when i got the comm. That was back in the seventies. I finally got the inst. tickt in 2004. Not that i needed it for my field,just because I wanted to get it. Dont believe all the talk of not making money in the business, I know of at least a couple that pay very well. As for your hearing situation, I really cant help you there, You could ask Dr. Forred about that. Seems like i just read somewhere about a guy that just got his inst. rating and he was deaf also. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your career,and if you have anymore questions, please ask away. I will help you if i can.

[WacoFan]

30West -

Your comments are true enough probably - I certainly would not argue with them. Flying AG, or Air Attack is probably not the quickest way to an airline - although some people fly Caravans as a time builder and get Tubine PIC - which you can also get flying AG (I know Single TPIC is probably not very useful).

Some people want to do something besides the airlines though - some like Freight, some want 135 and some want corporate. I DO think that AG or Air Attack is a worthwhile pursuit to those that are passionate about it. And, the title of the website is "Jet Careers", which opens it up to all kinds of flying - many of the AG planes are turbine powered as well as many Air Attack machines. I think that this thread can add to this website by showing newbies another side to aviation. One of the problems I see is that kids who are passionate about flying are not necessarily exposed to all that aviation has to offer and to the unique opportunities that may exist.

Certainly can't argue with your statements though, and it is good to have the different viewpoint to show the good/bad with different occupations.

[WacoFan]

Thanks T-Cart. Dr. Forred gave me some encouragement regarding the hearing issue. I read Ag Air Update as soon all the time. I also understand about doing more work with the larger, turbine machines. Can you tell me what the transition was like from the Ag Cats with the radials to the turbine Air Tractors? I would imagine that the planes today are significantly more pleasant to fly all day than the older machines. What are some of the advances that you have seen since the 70's and what is the biggest in terms of safety, productivity, etc? Has the field gotten a lot safer over time - airplanes more survivable? How do the Air Tractors stack up against Thrush's? Where is the best place to train? How "tricky" are the planes on the ground?

Sorry for all the questions!

[t-cart]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Thanks T-Cart. Dr. Forred gave me some encouragement regarding the hearing issue. I read Ag Air Update as soon all the time. I also understand about doing more work with the larger, turbine machines. Can you tell me what the transition was like from the Ag Cats with the radials to the turbine Air Tractors? I would imagine that the planes today are significantly more pleasant to fly all day than the older machines. What are some of the advances that you have seen since the 70's and what is the biggest in terms of safety, productivity, etc? Has the field gotten a lot safer over time - airplanes more survivable? How do the Air Tractors stack up against Thrush's? Where is the best place to train? How "tricky" are the planes on the ground?

Sorry for all the questions!

WacoFan, Glad you talked to the Dr. about the hearing. Hope it goes well for you. After flying Ag Cats and Thrushes for so long, The transition into the Air Tractor was the toughest. The best way i can describe the feel of an Air Tractor is that there is none, At least for the first fifty hours or so. It is really light on the stick forces. After flying the AT for a while and having to get back into one of these other planes , they feel like the ol lead sled. Nothing flies like an Air Tractor. Having said that, I really liked tha other planes also. It is all in what you are flying. Most all of the new planes are coming from the factory these days with Air conditioning. Few of the older planes had that, and it makes a big difference on the hot days,which there are a lot of during the season. The turbine engines are so much more reliable than the old P&Ws. Also GPS has also helped tremendously as far as productivity. Not having to wait on the flaggers to get to the field has helped a lot.The industry has become safer than it once was, but, It will still kill you pretty quickly if you dont pay attention. All of the planes that i have mentioned are relatively easy to handle on the ground. If you can handle a small taildragger such as a champ, cub or such, you can transition into one of these planes pretty easily.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by t-cart

If you can handle a small taildragger such as a champ, cub or such, you can transition into one of these planes pretty easily.

SO - if I am a competant Champ pilot, you think I could handle an AT-802???

That is amazing if true - I figured that it would take at least Stearman, or perhaps T-6 time to handle a taildragger that big and powerful.

Great to hear about the Air Tractors - anything built in Texas has to be the best! (I grew up in Houston - have been displaced in KC). I would love to visit the Air Tractor factory sometime. Are there any reputable schools for AG training?

[t-cart]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

SO - if I am a competant Champ pilot, you think I could handle an AT-802???

That is amazing if true - I figured that it would take at least Stearman, or perhaps T-6 time to handle a taildragger that big and powerful.

Great to hear about the Air Tractors - anything built in Texas has to be the best! (I grew up in Houston - have been displaced in KC). I would love to visit the Air Tractor factory sometime. Are there any reputable schools for AG training?

WacoFan, Yes, If you are a COMPETANT Champ pilot,You could transition into an 802 without much problem. The ag planes are pretty easy to handle on the ground. Lots of rudder authority and such. Now, that does not mean that you should go out and start doing ag work without some training. That could be bad. As you stated, T-6 or Stearman time would be a plus. I went from a 65 hp. Taylorcraft into a 235 Piper Pawnee,then on up the ladder. I didnt attend an ag school, like i said, I hooked up with the local guy and started there. I really havent had any experience with the ag schools or any of their graduates,so i cant help with that one. I think there is a place in Bainbridge Georgia that does ag training,and also one in Lousianna which i cant recall the name of. If you are ever in Olney Texas, Try to make time to go look through the AT factory. It is pretty amazing to walk down the assembly line from start to finish,and see the finished product.PS,, The Ag Cat was lots easier to fly and handle than the Pawnee was.

[WacoFan]

That is great info T-Cart. I always wondered about the big ag planes and their ground handling. They sound significantly better than the handling of some of the vintage airplanes I am familiar with. Sometimes it is hard to judge - many people fill the world with horrow stories about planes that may not be justified.

I would love to go to the AT factory. Leland Snow is quite a story. It would be neat, if I couldn't break into the ag flying business, to at least do something where I could fly these machines. Dream job would be to deliver them, particularly from Olney to overseas buyers. I am also interested in the 802's they send to Columbia and other parts of South America - they paint them black and use them for drug eradication. That has to be sporty at best - all the danger of Ag flying with the added bonus of people shooting at you!

I really think we should encourage Doug to make a place for AG and Air Attack. He does fly for a cropdusting outfit after all!

[WacoFan]

Are there any guys out there that used to fly fire bombers? I saw some working last fall while I was in LA during the big fires - pretty impressive stuff - would love to hear from anyone that has info on that.