BOS taxi instruction confusion

[dakovich]

BOS ground: "comair xxxx, rwy 9, taxi kilo, mike, hold short alpha"


so we read it back and then both of us kind of raise an eyebrow because we know alpha is between kilo and mike taxiways, but they said go rwy 9 via KILO-MIKE-Hold short A... obviously only takes a second to understand what they wanted us to do...taxi on kilo hold short at alpha and expect clearance to taxi to mike. so we ask for clarification and they keep saying it the same way as they origional did. so i just read it back the way i and the capt understand it. "taxi K hold short A expect M to 9". but how correct or incorrect is it for ATC to read the clearance in the way they did. the capt and i disscused how easy it would be for someone not familiar with BOS (and not paying attention) to just cruise up Kilo taxiway, miss the alpha hold short, miss the 4L appch hold short, and transition to M and find themselves at rwy 9. again, it didn't take much to understand what they wanted but have any of you heard a clearance like this. i never have, and the capt said it only happens in BOS. what up wit dat?

[Seggy]

They are giving you your departure runway.

That is why they give you that instruction.

[wheelsup]

I agree with you, I would think their instructions should be chronological, for example Kilo hold short A. Then when cleared on after that they should give you the rest of the clearance, or phrase it like you did "expect M" or something similar. It's such a catch-22. In a day and age where we strive to be precise and runway incursions are a big deal, this certainly doesn't help any.

[beechpilot]

I don't think it's like that only in BOS. I've always recieved the full taxi route and then been told where I need to hold short.

[Teller1900]

It's confusing, but not incorrect. They're supposed to tell you the limit of your clearance first (the runway you're taxiing to) then give you your instructions how to get there. Would it have been easier if he had put the hold short phrase in the order you would seen it? Sure. Is it wrong to give you the full route clearance, then give you a hold short? Not at all. But then again, if he had said "Runway 9, taxi via Kilo, hold short of Alpha, Mike" that probably would have been even more confusing.

[BobDDuck]

That's pretty normal to get at places other then Boston. Charlotte does it all the time with "taxi 36L via Mike and Echo, hold short of Foxtrot". I've seen Philly do it was well when they are having people taxi around the bottom end of 9L. And don't get me started on LGA giving a full taxi clearance and then stopping at GG.

[dakovich]

it just doesn't seem like the smartest way to give a taxi clearance. especially with all the concerns of incursions and what not. then you consider all the talk of how many low-time RJ guys are cruising around out there. i can sure see where this way of giving a taxi clearance could really become a problem. really don't like hearing a clearance that, without experience, could be misunderstood by someone. its like when ATC gives someone an altitude, heading, speed, and freq change all at once. after having the experience of this its not much of a problem, but why leave any margin of error.

[SteveC]

That sounds like pretty standard phrasing to me also. Destination first, route to your destination, then any special instructions for the route (hold short being the most typical). I really can't think of a better way to present the information any clearer without clogging up the frequency unnecessarily. With that pattern you get the overall plan, the details of how you're going to complete the plan, and the important instruction given last so you'll more easily remember it.

Controllers know that new guys sometimes need a few trips to learn the ropes at their airport. Some of them might not have much patience with that, but that's not your problem, is it? Here is a hint you might use in the future: don't ask for clarification more than once. If you're not sure the first time given an instruction, ask for clarification as needed. If you're still not sure, just ask for progressive instructions. Here is how it might go in the situation you outline:

"Boston ground, Comair 1234, taxi."
"Comair 1234 runway 9, taxi kilo, mike, hold short alpha"
"Runway 9, taxi via kilo and mike, hold short...where (?) for Comair 1234?"
"Comair 1234, kilo, mike, hold short alpha!"
<both pilots looking slightly quizzical>
"Ground, Comair 1234 request progressive."

It doesn't tie up the frequency any more than needed, and helps keep both you and the controller from making a potentially nasty mistake. Nothing else needs to be said between you and the controller, you both are now on the same page, for sure! (I learned that trick from a 13,000 hour pilot. First lesson he taught me is to check your ego at the cockpit door because nobody knows everything. Never pretend you know something that you don't, and don't worry if someone else thinks that you should have known something that you didn't. If it was really something that you should have known - make sure you go back and learn it later, but never make a problem worse in the cockpit by bluffing.)

[ATC RET 2003]

Here's what the book (7110.65) has:

c. Specify the runway for departure, any necessary
taxi instructions, and hold short restrictions when an
aircraft will be required to hold short of a runway or
other points along the taxi route.
EXAMPLE−
“Runway Three Six Left, taxi via taxiway Alpha, hold short
of taxiway Charlie.”

or

“Runway Three Six Left, taxi via Alpha, hold short of
Charlie.”
PHRASEOLOGY−
RUNWAY (number),
TAXI/PROCEED VIA (route if necessary,
HOLD SHORT OF (runway number)
or
HOLD SHORT OF (location)
or
ON (taxi strip, runup, pad, etc.),

[dakovich]

i understood what he wanted. wasn't a big deal, just honestly hadn't heard it said that way before. second, the freq was empty. wasn't busy.