NW + DL Merger Mania Update... A little birdy tells me

[WalterSobchak]

Airline management comes from a different brand of evil. I think they were all history majors with an emphasis on the Nazi party. The reason you hear of school shootings and not board room shootings is because you can't kill something with out a soul. I think people have tried and failed. A wooden stake to the heart my be the way to go, but you will need an angry mob for that.......wait a minute Outside of a few small examples I think 98% of airline execs are pure evil. Poorly managed company goes into bankruptcy, buys new planes sheds, leases, slashes salaries and pensions, then the CEO gets a fat bonus. If any one of us filed for bankruptcy I don't think we could get rid of our credit cards, mortgage, etc. and buy a new car. Not to mention get a raise and stay in control of our finances.
Yes they are evil. Management files bankruptcy they should all loose their jobs not get bonuses. Then there might be an incentive to run a company right. Hang'em and Hang'em High!

[bike21]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Eh, I consider power/money hungry to be the same as "evil." So I'll compromise and say 80% evil.

Fair enough

Careful with that. Phil Trenary (aka, Phildo), CEO at Pinnacle got his Private also. He used it to claim that being a pilot "really isn't that hard."

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Yeah, AMR's "boss" is a pilot. And I've no respect for him at all. A pilot's license doesn't make an airline pilot.

Duly noted folks. Not saying our boss is suddenly our whitish-blue collar brethren, but at least he is getting educated. I will let him make up his own mind on how wants to treat his workers.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by bike21

Fair enough





Duly noted folks. Not saying our boss is suddenly our whitish-blue collar brethren, but at least he is getting educated. I will let him make up his own mind on how wants to treat his workers.

A PPL license doesn't teach you jack #### about flying for a living and the sacrifices that you make. Let him get 5,000 hours and earn his bread from it then he can talk. Most pilots are more educated than the CEO's the difference as PCL put we have a soul.

[Doug Taylor]

I appreciate your candor, but I'm certainly of the school of thought that the next incarnation of Lorenzo is going to be an airline pilot with an MBA.

[777forever]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

USAToday was incorrect.

Which occurs often. Who was that Flight Simmer named Eric (something) that was an airline analyst for a few years?

But they have some awesome colorful factoids about minutia!

Do you know what the proposed pay is like somewhat?

[Doug Taylor]

It's going to take upwards of an 70-ish% restoration from current rates to bring the group even close to what was given up/wrestled away to match 2001 rates.

Now a raise that's another beast entirely.

I *think*, I'd have to check my notes, but I think it included a 15% restoration.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Airline management comes from a different brand of evil. I think they were all history majors with an emphasis on the Nazi party. The reason you hear of school shootings and not board room shootings is because you can't kill something with out a soul. I think people have tried and failed. A wooden stake to the heart my be the way to go, but you will need an angry mob for that.......wait a minute

[ElyJs]

These ideas are crazy. Management doesn't determine pay based on whether they are good or evil. They make decisions based on money. If they keep the labor happy, they will do their job, not call in sick as much and generally be more productive, but most importantly not organize. We as pilots need union protection because it is extremely hard to recognize pilot productivity. When you give that pilot a raise his productivity does not increase, he still gets airplane from point A to point B for X amount of dollars. You can call management evil if you like because yes their job is to keep labor costs low and increase shareholder value. Effectively their job is to pay you as little as possible. I guarantee they had an analyst run the numbers and determine that by declaring bankruptcy they would be able to reduce labor costs by X amount of dollars. This was the best option to increase value so thats what they did. This was their way to muscle the labor groups.

I want to increase pilot pay and get as much bang for the buck for my flying. Here are my conclusions so far on the only way this is possible.

1. Increase collective bargaining power. (vote, stand united, let your voice be heard)

2. Reduce the quantity of labor
a. this could be done by increasing FAA minimums to enter the industry
b. prove that a low time pilot costs the company more money (ie smoking holes, higher insurance premiums)
c. as flight training becomes more expensive less people will do it
d. educate people on the truths of the industry (get more people to demand more compensation, accepting low pay kills us)

3. Increase demand for labor
a. get more people flying (VLJs and foreign demand will help this)


Way I see it we have the most control over 1 and maybe 2(d), the invisible hand determines the rest.



If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.

[MQAAord]

No, I'll call management evil. Especially when my management called me a "$30,000 a year Coke machine".

That's not about making a company profitable, that was a vicious attack on an entire workgroup.


(Not to mention that in 7 years with AMR I never came close to $30k!)

[bike21]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

A PPL license doesn't teach you jack #### about flying for a living and the sacrifices that you make. Let him get 5,000 hours and earn his bread from it then he can talk. Most pilots are more educated than the CEO's the difference as PCL put we have a soul.

Gonna have to pull the 'no sh## sherlock' card

Originally Posted by ElyJs

If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.

Good post, but I really liked this tidbit. Failure should have consequences, not rewards.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by ElyJs

I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.

X about 1,000,000,000

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by ElyJs

These ideas are crazy. Management doesn't determine pay based on whether they are good or evil. They make decisions based on money. If they keep the labor happy, they will do their job, not call in sick as much and generally be more productive, but most importantly not organize. We as pilots need union protection because it is extremely hard to recognize pilot productivity. When you give that pilot a raise his productivity does not increase, he still gets airplane from point A to point B for X amount of dollars. You can call management evil if you like because yes their job is to keep labor costs low and increase shareholder value. Effectively their job is to pay you as little as possible.

I want to increase pilot pay and get as much bang for the buck for my flying. Here are my conclusions so far on the only way this is possible.

1. Increase collective bargaining power. (vote, stand united, let your voice be heard)

2. Reduce the quantity of labor
a. this could be done by increasing FAA minimums to enter the industry
b. prove that a low time pilot costs the company more money (ie smoking holes, higher insurance premiums)
c. as flight training becomes more expensive less people will do it
d. educate people on the truths of the industry (get more people to demand more compensation, accepting low pay kills us)

3. Increase demand for labor
a. get more people flying (VLJs and foreign demand will help this)


Way I see it we have the most control over 1 and maybe 2(d), the invisible hand determines the rest.



If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.

Ahhh, so naive. Sadly, you couldn't be more wrong about management's motivations in this business. I suggest three books for you to read that will give you a good knowledge base in these issues: Hard Landing, Flying the Line Vol I, and Flying the Line Vol II. These three books will give you a window into the airline manager's convoluted mind. This is more about ego gratification to them than profitability. If they have to lose $100 million dollars in order to achieve the ego boost of damaging a union, then they consider that a great bargain. Delta Air Lines lost $500 million dollars during the Comair strike, but if management would have given in to every single demand of the CMR pilots, it would have only cost them $50 million. You have to understand the airline management ego before you can understand what you're up against.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Especially when my management called me a "$30,000 a year Coke machine".

Please tell me you're kidding.

[Doug Taylor]

Nope! She's not. Good old Crandal.

[ElyJs]

I don't want to get in a flame war, so we should agree to disagree. They didn't give into the labor union because they fear the unions more than you would ever know. It is naive to think that economics don't apply. I had a professor in college that was an exec for Peoplexpress. He made way too much money before he started teaching.

Managements goal is to decrease collective bargaining power, government regulation etc. This allows them to operate more efficiently. Your damn right they will damage a union any way they can. Unless they fear the backlash

-Jason
www.flyboulder.com

BTW, making comment about a member being naive or about a high school level economics course is condescending. If these needed to be added to an argument, it is harder for me to respect what follows.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Please tell me you're kidding.

I am not.

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Nope! She's not. Good old Crandal.

Crandall. Two Ls. Twice the "loserness".

Vicious, nasty man. That comment (about the Coke machine) would have made C.R. roll over in his grave. C.R. was huge supporter of the flight attendants.

[Doug Taylor]

They're the "face" of the airline. Some CEO's have figured that out, others haven't.

You can have all the "Hi! I'm Doug Parker! Welcome aboard!" crap on the safety demo, but if the cabin crew is angry because they got hosed by crew scheduling, well, all bets are off.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by ElyJs

I don't want to get in a flame war, so we should agree to disagree. They didn't give into the labor union because they fear the unions more than you would ever know. It is naive to think that economics don't apply. I had a professor in college that was an exec for Peoplexpress. He made way too much money before he started teaching.

-Jason
www.flyboulder.com

Jason, I spent years as a union rep during contract negotiations. Trust me, I know these people. Economics apply, but they are secondary to ego for most airline managers. You need to spend some time in this industry, and preferably some time in union work, before you can really understand what's going on.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Here's the dirty little secret about upper-level executives in every industry: most do not get their jobs because they are good managers; most get their jobs because they are really good at making a sale. Their most successfully sold product -- themselves.

Something to think about.

[WalterSobchak]

OK I'll bite on this one....

Originally Posted by ElyJs

These ideas are crazy. Management doesn't determine pay based on whether they are good or evil. They make decisions based on money.What goes in their pocket not the share holders. If they keep the labor happy, they will do their job, not call in sick as much and generally be more productive, but most importantly not organize. We as pilots need union protection because it is extremely hard to recognize pilot productivity. When you give that pilot a raise his productivity does not increase, he still gets airplane from point A to point B for X amount of dollars. When he is doing more work for the same money that is a pay cut management wins. When he gets you to do more work for less money he wins and laughs at you.You can call management evil if you like because yes their job is to keep labor costs low and increase shareholder value. If that was the case about shareholder value explain bankruptcy mania? They don't give a damn about the shareholder because they can get filthy rich by running the company into the ground. Just name a Legacy and its been done. Effectively their job is to pay you as little as possible. I guarantee they had an analyst run the numbers and determine that by declaring bankruptcy they would be able to reduce labor costs by X amount of dollars. This was the best option to increase value so thats what they did. Hence RJ's. A 900 CA at my company and the new hire FO make about 113 an hour an thats just a DC-9 CA at NW.This was their way to muscle the labor groups.

I want to increase pilot pay and get as much bang for the buck for my flying. Here are my conclusions so far on the only way this is possible.

1. Increase collective bargaining power. (vote, stand united, let your voice be heard) That starts at the top down. Scope out regional jet flying.

2. Reduce the quantity of labor See above.
a. this could be done by increasing FAA minimums to enter the industry
b. prove that a low time pilot costs the company more money (ie smoking holes, higher insurance premiums)FAA doesn't care about labor costs until some holes get smoked in the ground. When RJ's start dropping about one a month then you might see the FAA step in 5 years later.
c. as flight training becomes more expensive less people will do it Don't know where your getting your bank roll, but If I didn't do it 10 years ago I wouldnt be able to do it today. It's already expensive.
d. educate people on the truths of the industry (get more people to demand more compensation, accepting low pay kills us)Impossible. See GoJet thread.
3. Increase demand for labor
a. get more people flying (VLJs and foreign demand will help this) VLJ are the next cancer. All we need is a bunch of 10,000lb jet cruising in the 30's at .55


Way I see it we have the most control over 1 and maybe 2(d), the invisible hand determines the rest. See PCL's example. Ego plays a big role. Thats why the airline business is like highschool.



If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They're getting ###### as bad as any one. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.Thank God

[ElyJs]

I agree totally. well two posts above anyway

[ElyJs]

No, I'll call management evil. Especially when my management called me a "$30,000 a year Coke machine".

That's not about making a company profitable, that was a vicious attack on an entire workgroup.

That is evil. Can't argue with that.

[kellwolf]

If management paid attention to economics, PCL and ASA wouldn't have to fight for over 5 years for a contract. I'm not at ASA, so I'll use PCL as an example.

We were/are $X amount of dollars apart over the life of the contract. That means, that if management plopped down $X, then they would be set for about 5 years. Rather than actually do that and move on, they chose to drag things out. What happens? Guys start jumping ship, telling their friends not to come here and FOs start applying elsewhere. I can give you a list a mile long of FOs that went from here laterally to another regional. That's wasted money in training costs right there. They spend upwards of $30K per FO only to see them leave in about 6 months to a year. Then they have to spend ANOTHER $30K+ on another new hire that MAY make it through training. Even put that aside, PCL paid more in penalities to NWA due to cancelled flights due to lack of staffing last year than we were apart on the contract. So, if they had signed the deal, WORST case scenario is they would have broken even since they wouldn't have had to pay the penalities since most guys would have stuck around, alleviating the staffing issue. Instead, they chose to dig in their heels so they wouldn't look like sell-outs to the rest of the airline management teams. It took Delta stepping in and saying "Look, this labor unrest is costing us $$$. Settle it." for ASA to get a contract.

I'll agree that management's job is to make $$$ for shareholders. But management will also bring in analysts to formulate reports showing productivity for themselves in order to justify raises for themselves. At the same time, they'll tell the labor groups in negotiations "There's not enough money to go around." Then they go out and buy another airline (which actually LOSES money over the year and is still bleeding cash) and more airplanes.