EAS routes are evil!!

[falconvalley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-MuKmEdpw

Here's a leetle slant on EAS routes.

So...does this mean I actually pay back SOME OF MY pay to fly these routes??!!?11111

[Snuggle]

yea.... those gas guzzling beech 1900's!

[Nick]

Essential air service should end with the exception of Alaska.

There are enough ground transportation options to airports in the lower 48.

I would not be opposed to government assisted ground transportation to large airports from places that are in the middle of nowhere. Run a van each day from some place in the middle of Montana to the nearest place with airline service...no problem. It would be a tiny fraction of the cost it takes to fly a plane on these routes.

There is no reason to be spending one billion dollars every nine years to fly mostly empty turboprops on routes that can be accomplished by spending no more than an afternoon in the car.

[Firebird2XC]

Well now... there's a few things I didn't know about EAS service.

That explains why there's even a Colgan Beechcraft fleet at all anymore- they can't get rid of the EAS routes into Maine.

That means there isn't a phaseout plan until somebody else agrees to take the routing. It also means that they'll just limp along with no real end in sight until somebody does. So the real truth is- they'd wash their hands of the 1900 right now if only they could. Until then they'll just be unwanted leftovers.

Moving along....

Who decides a community has an "Essential" need for air service anyhow?
Couldn't they just de-designate the route?

[mtsu_av8er]

That "older" plane isn't a gas guzzler . . .

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Who decides a community has an "Essential" need for air service anyhow?
Couldn't they just de-designate the route?

Route designation is a political process. Good luck convincing a senator to push for a delisting of an EAS route when it is the only service to their constituent's local airport.

The irony of course is that a lot of these local places think they should have regular air service, and not just on little planes. Plattsburgh, NY is a good example. For years they had CommuteAir providing lift out of there. The locals decided that the 1900s weren't good enough for them, and they really deserved Jet Blue service, just like Burlington, VT on the other side of the lake. They pretty much ran CommuteAir out of town and then in the end had to settle for Big Sky. Turns out Big Sky was no where near as reliable as CommuteAir and several months later the locals were complaining again. Now that Big Sky has shut down they are looking for more options. The best bet right now is either Colgan or CapeAir. How ironic would that be... the locals got rid of a 19 seater in hopes of getting an E190 and now would be stuck with a 9 seat Cessna 402.

Morgantown/Parkersburg/Clarksburg is another good example of locals wanted more out of their EAS and getting screwed. Air Midwest used to do that loop out of PIT (and DCA pre 9-11) for US Airways. The locals pushed and pushed for more seats and bigger planes and eventually they got the government to rebid it. RegionsAir won the contract for service out of Cleveland on SAABs (I think... Tram would know). For various reasons it took months longer then planned to get the service running, and then once it was up, the reliability was terrible. So the locals complained again, and Colgan picked up the routes with service back to PIT (although it is now IAD I think for United).

Just goes to show you what a mess EAS service can be.

[Velocipede]

EAS is the only way several towns in SE Alaska would even have air service. And, its not just for the passengers, but for the cargo (both in and out).

EAS isn't entirely evil.

[cfii2007]

Wow, do you mean the government actually wastes our tax dollars???

[Milesar]

The cost of EAS is a drop in the bucket compared to some of the other items our government is spending money on.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

That "older" plane isn't a gas guzzler . . .

...and a hummer isn't a gas guzzler...when compared to a motor home.

But I agree with the news report, why fly a 19 seat airplane on legs that historically have only put 8-9 people on them. It's like going squirrel hunting with a 50 caliber (although some people might enjoy that ).

That being said I do think EAS is important, it helps smaller communities grow and I'd bet generates more in revenue as a tax basis than the government spends over the long term. But where do you draw the line? To drive two hours to another airport really isn't that big of a deal.

I know there was an airline in New Mexico that won some EAS routes with a PC-12, they went under, then another company took over with a C208. So far they've been in business longer than the PC-12 operator so they must be doing OK.

[Snuggle]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

...and a hummer isn't a gas guzzler...when compared to a motor home.

But I agree with the news report, why fly a 19 seat airplane on legs that historically have only put 8-9 people on them. It's like going squirrel hunting with a 50 caliber (although some people might enjoy that ).

That 19 seat airplane can make a profit with 8-9 people on board

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Snuggle

That 19 seat airplane can make a profit with 8-9 people on board

A Netjets Citation X makes a profit with 1 person on board. Profit is completely dependent on ticket costs/revenue, and since these routes are supplemented one could argue that the airlines don't make a profit on the routes and as such need additional money. In fact, according to the news report, even with $4 million a year, Midwest still is losing money.

If you reduce the size of the plane you reduce expenses, and reduce the need of supplemental government (our) money.

It's funny, all of us here are probably against the "bridge to nowhere" sort of thing but when it comes to our own industry we want all we can get .

[Velocipede]

And the bridge in question linked the city of Ketchikan to its airport. So, it wasn't really to "nowhere."

[wheelsup]

The "bridge to nowhere" was a reference to pork barrel projects. Being from Alaska though I'm sure you support a $350 million dollar bridge to link an island with 50 people on it.

[Velocipede]

You must agree there are economic consequences to having your International Airport linked by ferry to your city. Especially in the summer when the cruise ships are in town.

You might want to take a trip up there and check out the ferry before you automatically buy in to the media hype about an issue.

[sorrygottarunway]

"Those itty bitty towns that they don't want to fly to..."

Well I did the JST-AOO runs today. Definitely looked like the middle of no-where, although now that we've switched it all to united the loads have been up a bit. We'll see. Also had my first in-airplane heart attack today. Well, a passenger did, not me. I just sprout gray hairs.

[wheelsup]

Yes I agree, it does have an economic consequence. It's one of the pitfalls of living in the sticks in a town of <10,000 people.

If Alaska can come up with the money I could care less. But why should 49 other states and their citizens pay for it when it benefits very VERY few people? If I happen to visit I'll gladly pay the $10 RT it costs me to take the ferry. Anyway it's a dead issue, it's been dropped for now.

[USMC-SGT]

Gas Guzzling..what does the 1900 burn? 650 GPH? I guess it is gas guzzling compared to a cessna 206.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

Gas Guzzling..what does the 1900 burn? 650 GPH? I guess it is gas guzzling compared to a cessna 206.

650 GPH is about double the burn of an RJ in cruise . Probably more like 150 GPH.

[jjm]

I could have sworn, and maybe I'm WAY off base, but I thought it was Senator Colgan himself that spearheaded the movement back in the late 80s to GET EAS approved by the Government?! If in fact it was him-- that's pretty effin' brilliant, b/c Colgan will stay in business for a long time. IMO, I think you have to keep that program, though, but maybe an examination/restructure is called for.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jjm

I could have sworn, and maybe I'm WAY off base, but I thought it was Senator Colgan himself that spearheaded the movement back in the late 80s to GET EAS approved by the Government?! If in fact it was him-- that's pretty effin' brilliant, b/c Colgan will stay in business for a long time. IMO, I think you have to keep that program, though, but maybe an examination/restructure is called for.

That's pretty typical of those in government. They use their influence to get policy changes that benefit their businesses. It's called corruption and isn't any thing new .

[jynxyjoe]

Hey guys. You could just read http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07793t.pdf and read the report you already paid to have done.

"EAS, established as part of airline deregulation in 1978, is designed to ensure that small communities that received scheduled passenger air service before deregulation continue to have access to the nation’s air transportation system. In fiscal year 2007, Congress appropriated about $109.4 million for the Department of Transportation (DOT) for EAS."

"Since 1997, funding for EAS has increased from $25.9 million in 1997 to $109.4 million in 2007 and the number of communities has generally increased. The federal government is spending a median of about $98 per passenger, with subsidies ranging from about $13 to $677 per passenger."


Median is about $98 per person and I know in the town i used to live the city bus was subsidized at a median of $70 per person.

$109.4 million. Budget is 2,650 billion.... thats 2.6 trillion. 109.4/2,650,000... .00004% if I'm doing my math right. its 4.113207x10-5

[Kingairer]

"How toasters can kill your childern, story at 11"

[falconvalley]

Hey folks, like it or not, the whole point of Essential Air Service is exactly what Channel 4 is saying is a waste.

However, it's not the fact that we're taking Grandma Jones back to Escanaba instead of her husband having to drive her to Green Bay. It's the fact that the government feels the need to have airline service in smaller, out of the way towns to promote growth. How exactly each town gets the service is a process and there are contracts for a reason. When enough parties agree that it's a big waste of time and the contract runs out, the service goes away. Then Grandma Jones will have find a different way to her grandchildren.

[USMC-SGT]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

650 GPH is about double the burn of an RJ in cruise . Probably more like 150 GPH.

An RJ burns 375 gph in cruise? Even if there were per side that does not seem right unless it is at idle. The Q400 burns around 1000 per side in cruise or more depending on how low you are.