Instructing with 76 pax in the back...

[777forever]

Originally Posted by staplegun

From the conversation I had with the pilots beforehand I gathered that it was a regular line flight, not an IOE.


Kevin

Wow, he's off IOE and still saying that things are moving fast? I believe most pilots get over that after day one or two of IOE.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Wow, he's off IOE and still saying that things are moving fast? I believe most pilots get over that after day one or two of IOE.

That's because you're on the ATR ;-)

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

Unless you're going to prevent a crash, keep your pie-hole shut when you're in the JS. No one likes a smarty pants telling them how to operate an aircraft sitting 2 inches over their shoulder.

I disagree completely. If I'm about to screw something up, I'd rather hear about it from the guy sitting behind me than ATC or the FAA. I thought that was kinda the point of jumpseating, not just to give you a free ride. You gotta draw the line somewhere, but I'd love a heads up if I miss something.

[FlyChicaga]

Sadly, I have had something similar happen to me. It has only happened once though. I had a First Officer missing items on the checklists, not using the paper checklist, busted the 200 knots below Class B rule and the 250 knots below 10,000 feet rule, exceeded the max speed for the aircraft and didn't correct it, blew through a heading assigned in VMC... the list goes on. It was definitely one of the most difficult trips I have ever flown. Plus, this guy had been at the company for a year. To me, that is more scary than someone right off IOE who is struggling. He was not a low time pilot, either.

In all honesty, I have had some great FOs. Some have made mistakes, or were allowing themselves to fall into the trap of complacency, but they have done a great job. Only once in over a year of flying as a Captain have I thought to myself, "This guy needs to go back to training." Maybe I'm just lucky.

As for the jumpseating discussion, there have been a few instances where I've spoken up to the crew about something. I've always been polite about it, and I always add, "Sorry for interrupting. I just though you might want to know." Never has a crew been anything other than thankful. Once it was during upgrade OE at a major airline, and both Captains were very appreciative for me speaking up. We're all in this together.

PS: On my very first flight on upgrade OE, we had a B777 CA in the jumpseat. I told him, "Just so you know, this is my first flight in the left seat!" Besides not being able to set the radios (we don't practice that in the sim; I kept wanting to use the wrong hand), it wasn't too nerve racking.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Wow, he's off IOE and still saying that things are moving fast? I believe most pilots get over that after day one or two of IOE.

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

That's because you're on the ATR ;-)

Nice! Things never move fast on the ATR!

I've heard absolute horror stories from Mesa captains while riding in their jumpseat. I haven't been too scared while commuting on them, although after one landing in a -900 in Tucson I noticed that the we were so far left of centerline that the right wing wasn't even overhanging the stripes.

[Hootie]

Originally Posted by staplegun

Fire away!

That's just the way it is. Nobody cares until somebody gets killed. Govt. will not and could not care less about this.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by 777forever

(clue #1)He flies with allstars due to to fact his company has the "circle of stars"
(clue #2) The hit song "Apologize" is by the group One "name of airline"

Ahhh, now I see. That explains it, then. That airline is attracting the experienced FOs from other airlines. A buddy of mine is the new Manager of Line Standards for them, and he frequently does the interviews. Mostly FOs from other regionals that already have jet experience. Big difference from many other airlines.

[SmoothLanderJ]

This is a great thread BTW...........Whenever I get to IOE, on the line or anytime flying, I definitely would want the jumpseater to speak up if he / she saw me doing something unsafe and wouldnt be mad at all. If I were jumpseating and saw something unsafe, I certainly would politely bring it up.....

[SeanD]

Is there ever a thought that some of these regionals who employ lower time pilots might consider a more frequent recurrent type of thing? For example the new pilot falls into a certain category of total time and experience therefore they need to hit the sims more frequently. Im just curious. Also how long is a normal probationary period at the regionals?

[surreal1221]

1 year.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

1 year.

How ironic.
The places using "low timers" send them to the sim once per year.
We send them (20,000 hr FOs) to full 3-5 day recurrents every six months...in addition to giving them PIC types when hired.

[I_Money]

I am not surprised - when a friend of mine was working at Ameristar in their training department I was amazed how many 1000+ hr pilots lacked basic airmanship.

This is the reason I only fly big airplanes............

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Ahhh, now I see. That explains it, then. That airline is attracting the experienced FOs from other airlines. A buddy of mine is the new Manager of Line Standards for them, and he frequently does the interviews. Mostly FOs from other regionals that already have jet experience. Big difference from many other airlines.

Not always true. 2 freight guys, 2 former colgan guys and an F16 pilot, the rest were instructors. The average TT for the instructors seemed to be around 1000 hours. The lowest time guy was 500 hours and the next lowest had like 800 hours everyone else was either a few over/under 1000. The freight and F16 guys obviously had more. Class consisted of 28 new hires. Trying to hire 70 or 80 pilots a month this year.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by I_Money

This is the reason I only fly big airplanes............

sorry NJA_capt, I_money only flies "big airplanes"

I've flown with dozens of newhire regional FO's fresh off OE and none of them were even close as bad as what's described in the first post, or any worse than I was when I first started flying an RJ.

In fact I somewhat enjoy flying with inexperienced newhires. They are almost always eager to learn and I'm happy to share what I can.

[LoadMasterC141]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Not always true. 2 freight guys, 2 former colgan guys and an F16 pilot, the rest were instructors. The average TT for the instructors seemed to be around 1000 hours. The lowest time guy was 500 hours and the next lowest had like 800 hours everyone else was either a few over/under 1000. The freight and F16 guys obviously had more. Class consisted of 28 new hires. Trying to hire 70 or 80 pilots a month this year.

So only 5 guys out of 28 were "experienced" so to speak? Also, is that new hire class the only one of the month? If so, you are a bit under the 70-80 goal, which makes me happy; more for me when I get there!

[Clocks]

I feel like I'm sort of treading water since IOE.

Finish IOE 1/9. Fly 2 legs 1/24. Fly a 4 leg 2 day 2/14.

I'll tell you although I was fine on the radios, flows, checklists, and getting us out of the airports, I flew the worst visual approach of my life on 2/14 (and it was backed up by the damn ILS/FD too), followed by a not-as-bad but nothing I'd write home about on 2/15 (but my very cool EWR based captain gave me some pointers on doing the visual to 11 in EWR with a tailwind, I got it down and stopped no problem, and both approaches met the "stabilized by 500' in VMC" requirements). And the stuff I was screwing up was basic crap, things that I had nailed back in the sims (like a proficient scan in our glass cockpit). I really wish I could just get some freakin' trips so I can get these things nailed. But they still have 60 days to get me my last 50 hours to get off high mins, and my guess is it wont happen until the last second.

Not sure why I'm complaining here, this thread just reminded me of feeling like I was chasing the airplane the whole way down the approach.

[greaper007]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Not sure why I'm complaining here, this thread just reminded me of feeling like I was chasing the airplane the whole way down the approach.

If anyone says they didn't feel like this Clocks then they're lying. I had about 400 hours of dual given in pretty busy Florida airspace with mostly instrument students. About the second week on line I read a clearance back so poorly at LGA that other pilots were making fun of me. Someone told me that you won't get really comfortable in the airplane until you have about 400-500 hours in it. They were absolutely right.

[sorrygottarunway]

Originally Posted by Propilot

Hindsight...but maybe when you noticed 300kts below 10k you might have said something like


"Wow, these jets sure to go fast"


...that way you avoid looking like you are a backseat driver

...of course it would be obvious what you are doing...but it allows the crew to save face.



I dunno...just a thought.

I love it!

[USMC-SGT]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

I had a First Officer missing items on the checklists, not using the paper checklist, busted the 200 knots below Class B rule

I could be wrong and it certainly would not be the first time but I was under the assumption that the 200 knots below class B only applied to operations in airspace underlying class B airspace designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor. When operating in class B the 250 below 10k rule applies. In laymans terms, passing through airspace intended for use by another airport while UNDER the class B shelf, you must slow down to 200kts. Or are you is that the part you were talking about in which case move along folks there is nothing to see here. I know you have more time in the system than I do so feel free to enlighten.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

I could be wrong and it certainly would not be the first time but I was under the assumption that the 200 knots below class B only applied to operations in airspace underlying class B airspace designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor. When operating in class B the 250 below 10k rule applies. In laymans terms, passing through airspace intended for use by another airport while UNDER the class B shelf, you must slow down to 200kts. Or are you is that the part you were talking about in which case move along folks there is nothing to see here. I know you have more time in the system than I do so feel free to enlighten.

Anytime you're below Class B airspace, you must not exceed 200kts.

Class B itself does not have a speed restriction, but the 250 below 10,000ft is used as a majority of Class B airspaces are below 10,000ft.

Atlanta's top is at 12,500, and while inside the portion of that Class B above 10,000ft there is no speed restriction.

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

I could be wrong and it certainly would not be the first time but I was under the assumption that the 200 knots below class B only applied to operations in airspace underlying class B airspace designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor. When operating in class B the 250 below 10k rule applies. In laymans terms, passing through airspace intended for use by another airport while UNDER the class B shelf, you must slow down to 200kts. Or are you is that the part you were talking about in which case move along folks there is nothing to see here. I know you have more time in the system than I do so feel free to enlighten.

We were operating to an airport that was underlying Class B airspace. So the 200-knot restriction applies. A good example of this is Chicago Midway Airport. MDW is under the Class B shelf for ORD, therefore departures that are assigned 3000 feet for an initial altitude under the 3600-foot Class B airspace must maintain 200 knots.

For turbine aircraft operating into the primary Class B airport, you must stay above the floor of Class B airspace. Should ATC assign you an altitude lower than this, you must notify them that you are leaving Class B airspace and slow to 200 knots. This happens all the time in EWR when landing on Runway 11, but everyone maintains 250 knots to keep from getting a lashing (and possibly a hold) from NY Approach. They do things "different" there.

When you are in Class B airspace, the 250-knot below 10,000 feet restriction applies. There is technically no airspeed restriction within Class B airspace.

You guys might run into this issue quite a bit at EWR operating the Q-400 into 11/29. They'll drop you below all the jet traffic, therefore also below Class B airspace. But like I said before, NY Approach is a different world...

[fsiflyer]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

PS: On my very first flight on upgrade OE, we had a B777 CA in the jumpseat. I told him, "Just so you know, this is my first flight in the left seat!" Besides not being able to set the radios (we don't practice that in the sim; I kept wanting to use the wrong hand), it wasn't too nerve racking.

I would consider any jumpseater on my airplane as part of the crew. I would expect a certain amount of tact if they see something and if the do not bring it up then they are part of the CRM error chain.

Staplegun is an experienced pilot that knew if there was an issue in the error chain. He saw the captain correct the FO and all was fine. That was making a command decision himself. I am certain if thing progressed even a few seconds more he would have corrected the situation. I don't know what I would have done in that situation but I do know when I see something unsafe I let the other guys know. Just my $.02.

[cime_sp]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

We were operating to an airport that was underlying Class B airspace. So the 200-knot restriction applies. A good example of this is Chicago Midway Airport. MDW is under the Class B shelf for ORD, therefore departures that are assigned 3000 feet for an initial altitude under the 3600-foot Class B airspace must maintain 200 knots.

For turbine aircraft operating into the primary Class B airport, you must stay above the floor of Class B airspace. Should ATC assign you an altitude lower than this, you must notify them that you are leaving Class B airspace and slow to 200 knots. This happens all the time in EWR when landing on Runway 11, but everyone maintains 250 knots to keep from getting a lashing (and possibly a hold) from NY Approach. They do things "different" there.

When you are in Class B airspace, the 250-knot below 10,000 feet restriction applies. There is technically no airspeed restriction within Class B airspace.

You guys might run into this issue quite a bit at EWR operating the Q-400 into 11/29. They'll drop you below all the jet traffic, therefore also below Class B airspace. But like I said before, NY Approach is a different world...

KHPN (White Plains, NY) is another good example of this. Anything withing 25nm of LGA and under 3500' I believe is under the class B.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

So only 5 guys out of 28 were "experienced" so to speak? Also, is that new hire class the only one of the month? If so, you are a bit under the 70-80 goal, which makes me happy; more for me when I get there!

I wouldn't say only five were experienced. Just not a bunch of former regional pilots. I think 1000 hours of instruction is pretty good especially when compared to the other regionals. I was actually suprised by the amount of time that most people had. Being my first 121 gig and with the amount of "Low Timer" reading I have done on here I thought everyone was going to be some 300 hour wet commercial guy. Not the case at all at Chautauqua.
As for the 70-80 goal the 28 were only for the E145 under the CHQ cert that month. The 70-80 is for all certificates Republic Holdings owns. There were other classes going for the 170/175 for Shuttle and Republic that weren't in our classes. My hire date was november and already have 140 pilots under me and the list stops at a Jan 9 class. There were a couple more classes that started since then that haven't been put on the seniority list yet. How long till you start applying?

[jtrain609]

Everybody makes mistakes one every flight. I can tell you that on the trip I'm finishing up I've already managed to set an altitude and not select a vertical speed mode (brain fart on my part, I got distracted and started doing something other than my normal routine when I set a new altitude) and then got slam dunked into DCA pretty bad. I had never been there before and was looking for the airport where I figured the airport should be when I'm looking at it from 12,000'. Turns out we were A LOT closer and I'm glad the skipper piped up and said, "You know we're almost on top of the airport, right? Approach hosed us and we've gotta drop this thing like it's hot."

Those things happen, and you try to stop them as much as possible; but as far as I'm concerned, the caliber of a pilot is revealed in their response to these mistakes. How you react to having the other crew member correct your mistakes, and your plans to try to make sure you don't make the same mistake again say a lot more to me than doing things perfectly all the time. With that, you've GOT to know when you make a mistake and be able to figure out how and why you made said mistake or you'll NEVER improve your own flying. Being lower time you have a lot less tools to do this. The more experience you get, and the more varied kind of flying that you do will improve your ability to fix these mistakes, but more so try to make sure they don't happen again.

300 knots below 10,000'? I can understand just screwing up and saying, "Hey, I botched it, sorry!" But trying to justify it? That tells me a lot about the caliber of this pilot.