To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle - Page 2

SmitteyB · February 16th, 2008, 22:56

Vote Alpa 2008 At Colgan!!

BobDDuck · February 16th, 2008, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmitteyB

Vote Alpa 2008 At Colgan!!

I'm guessing it won't even come to that. You are going to get stapled or furloughed before you get a chance to vote again.

It's about to get VERY ugly over there.

SmitteyB · February 16th, 2008, 23:33

I think you're wrong, but we'll see come a few weeks.

wheelsup · February 16th, 2008, 23:49

I think it's ironic that some people will say to not go to Pinnacle because they feel it's not a great place to work but it got them a quick upgrade and got them to where they wanted to end up in a timely fashion. Would you rather sit right seat at Horizon for 6 years or upgrade in 1-2 years and move on in 2-3 years?

I know my answer. There is no future at the regional level.

Pacheco · February 16th, 2008, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Friends don't let friends work at Pinnacle.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

blee256 · February 17th, 2008, 03:22

I would suggest going to Mesaba as well. If you live in MSP, try compass as well. I have no idea how they are viewed by NWA.

As far as pinnacle goes...The negatives outweigh the positives by far. The pay is the worst in the industry. Even mesa. The work rules are so bad, that you make no soft time. You actually lose money with the free 15 minutes over trip value. 50% dh and cx pay while everyone else gets 100%. and management pisses on pilots with threatening memos about sick time, and telling you meal breaks are a luxury.

But if you live in one of the domiciles I would come. because commuting sucks. If you can survive the pay, its not bad once you get off reserve. Everyone says they get extended and JM'ed like crazy, but i have only been extended once during my first month while i was on reserve. And I have denied it twice. I have never been junior manned. They have tried only a handful of times.

good luck

PCL_128 · February 17th, 2008, 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Would you rather sit right seat at Horizon for 6 years or upgrade in 1-2 years and move on in 2-3 years?

Those aren't the only options. Plenty of good regionals have reasonable upgrade times. If you're too impatient to wait 2-3 years to upgrade, then I don't want you in command of a jet.

Quote:

I know my answer. There is no future at the regional level.

Horrible attitude. I used to think that I would be in and out of the regionals in short order, too. It was a year or so before 9/11, and I had just started flying 1900s. I thought it would be a few short years at the regionals, then on to to some major. Then 9/11 came. Six long years later I finally left the regionals. You may think that you'll go to Mesa, Pinnacle, Colgan, or some other crappy regional and just leave in a couple of years, but you have no way of knowing how long you'll really be stuck there. Those two years can turn into six right before your eyes.

Shhhh, not while im flyin · February 18th, 2008, 22:08

Well I live in Atl, but there are only a few options there but I have alot of family in MEM, so if I had to commute it wouldnt be too much of a prob. Wouldnt need a crashpad or airport food.

If upgrade time is short im all for it. Pay is horrible industry wide so ive seen. But if its too low then.....

I dont even know what junior manned is but if its extra time then wouldnt you wanna work it since pay is soo low?? or am i just being naive

blee256 · February 18th, 2008, 22:35

We have an ATL base and a MEM base, so pinnacle is decent choice. Have you looked at ASA?

junior manning, is when they call you on your day off and make you come in to work. You can get around that however by....NOT ANSWERING YOUR PHONE! as long as you dont pick up, your not obligated to come in.

PCL_128 · February 18th, 2008, 22:40

Work at ASA if possible. Much better company with reasonable upgrade time and a brand new contract that's close to industry-leading.

Airdale · February 18th, 2008, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by blee256

junior manning, is when they call you on your day off and make you come in to work. You can get around that however by....NOT ANSWERING YOUR PHONE! as long as you dont pick up, your not obligated to come in.

Not if they call you the last day or your trip to JM an additional day. Colgan Scheduling tactic #5.

The only reason I'd say go to Pinnacle is because at least they have ALPA. While the contract negotiations have been rough, at least they have a voice over there.

mtsu_av8er · February 18th, 2008, 23:38

Just do it, man.

Quote:

I dont even know what junior manned is but if its extra time then wouldnt you wanna work it since pay is soo low??

Exactly. Just do it.

BobDDuck · February 18th, 2008, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shhhh, not while im flyin

I dont even know what junior manned is but if its extra time then wouldnt you wanna work it since pay is soo low?? or am i just being naive

If you are commuting and only have 8 days at home a month, even with low pay, you will try like hell to avoid having to work any more.

Unless of course you are like Lloyd and love flying so much you are willing to work on your days off just to be in an airplane.

Screaming_Emu · February 18th, 2008, 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shhhh, not while im flyin

Well I live in Atl, but there are only a few options there but I have alot of family in MEM, so if I had to commute it wouldnt be too much of a prob. Wouldnt need a crashpad or airport food.

If upgrade time is short im all for it. Pay is horrible industry wide so ive seen. But if its too low then.....

I dont even know what junior manned is but if its extra time then wouldnt you wanna work it since pay is soo low?? or am i just being naive

If you live in ATL and you apply to Pinnacle and not ASA something is wrong in your head. I'm pretty sure I'd go back to flight instructing before going to Pinnacle. There's nothing wrong with looking forward in your career, but its probably worth it to slow down a bit and think about NOW if it means you'll be crapped on a little bit less.

Tram · February 19th, 2008, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

I'm pretty sure I'd go back to flight instructing before going to Pinnacle.

It's not THAT bad here...

However, if the OP lives in ATL.. I'd be all over ASA... Why he'd come to Pinnacle is beyond me..

Shhhh, not while im flyin · February 19th, 2008, 00:08

yeh, ima apply to asa. as well as shuttle america (republic). But considering the bases i wanted an opinion on pinnacle

kellwolf · February 19th, 2008, 10:15

If you live in ATL, go with one of the other Delta Connection carriers. If you want Memphis, go Mesaba. The future is way too cloudy here. The fact that Delta and NWA could merge leaves a HUGE question mark as to if MEM will even still be a base. Who knows?

Those that think the contract will get done soon.....I'm wouldn't bet several months of pay and seniority on that. We've already got TWO arbitration decisions that are MONTHS past due. Either of those arbitration issues would be a huge win if it went our way. If BOTH went our way....damn. Our management team has tried to illegally alter pay rates without union agreement once, and they HAVE done it as of a few weeks ago. They "graciously" gave the CAs on the -900 a 5% pay increase, yet the FOs still get nada. Nevermind the fact that even with the 5%, we've still got one of the lowest -900 pay rates in the industry. They're having trouble getting guys to bid ATL b/c of the pay, so they "decided" to raise the pay. Guess what guys? RLA says you CAN'T DO THAT. You have to negotiate the whole contract or none at all, which means no picking and choosing what you want. I'd expect an ALPA lawsuit on this one soon, and if it's successful, it'll be followed by a 30 day cooling off period....which will probably result in a PEB to keep us from striking. The way I (and other people) see it, is that management is already imposing some of the terms they want. Under the RLA, that's one of the definitions of "self-help" on the management side of the table.

ASA was in contract negotiations forever, and they're management never pulled these tactics. In the past year, our management has installed the aforementioned pay rates illegally, bought a non-union carrier with the threat of whipsawing us against them (previously they were trying to negotiate relief in the scope clause to start one, but I guess since Colgan already existed it's different now?!?!), changed the sick policy about 4 times without union consultation, threatened pilots with multiple memos (if you want me to do something, change the FOM. I don't have room in my flight bag for a "memo binder"), TOLD scheduling to violate the contract multiple times just to get flying covered (just get the flights covered. The pilots can grieve it later) and sent multiple letters to pilots' homes in a blatant scare tactic aimed at their families (we don't have money for a new contract, but we can send 1300 letters via FedEx on a Sat).

Rumor I heard this week is we have ZERO FOs for the March classes. None. Zip. Zilch. Why? There are better places to work that are hiring right now. If I wasn't gonna upgrade in a few months and wasn't almost in the top half of the seniority list already, I'd be at Mesaba right now.....

Firebird2XC · February 19th, 2008, 10:24

As far out as upgrade appears to be for Eagle newhires, there were Pinnacle expatriots in the class that started just before mine.

Run off, they were.

WalterSobchak · February 19th, 2008, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Six long years later I finally left the regionals. You may think that you'll go to Mesa, Pinnacle, Colgan, or some other crappy regional and just leave in a couple of years, but you have no way of knowing how long you'll really be stuck there. Those two years can turn into six right before your eyes.

Very good advice. I waited on the situation I'm in and couldn't be happier. I didn't want to get stuck and thats why I didn't go some where I couldn't see myself at for atleast 5 years. With Major-Merger Fever going on I would rather be some where quality and I'm not say 9E isn't. I'd love to tell you to come to XJ with our snap backs over the next 3 years we will have a contract that is good as any out there. The people here are really great and there is a commuter clause in our contract.

blee256 · February 20th, 2008, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Rumor I heard this week is we have ZERO FOs for the March classes. None. Zip. Zilch. Why? There are better places to work that are hiring right now. If I wasn't gonna upgrade in a few months and wasn't almost in the top half of the seniority list already, I'd be at Mesaba right now.....

I SOOO hope thats true! I'll let you know, since I will be at the CEC in late march!

Tram · February 20th, 2008, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by blee256

I SOOO hope thats true! I'll let you know, since I will be at the CEC in late march!

It's true.. We can't fill our classes...

blee256 · February 20th, 2008, 20:18

I know we cant fill our classes. But zero, zilch, nada showing up, thats unheard of.

kellwolf · February 20th, 2008, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by blee256

I SOOO hope thats true! I'll let you know, since I will be at the CEC in late march!

I'll be there in April, assuming the next vacancy follows the pattern of the last several. I expect notes to copy and a full report on what the hell I'm getting myself into.

Tram · February 20th, 2008, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I'll be there in April, assuming the next vacancy follows the pattern of the last several. I expect notes to copy and a full report on what the hell I'm getting myself into.

Yeh, ditto.. Hopefully, I'll be doing the Nonconnah dance sooon..

kellwolf · February 21st, 2008, 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tram

Yeh, ditto.. Hopefully, I'll be doing the Nonconnah dance sooon..

Heh. If you've got the time on this next one, you've got a sim partner. Mine decided to ditch me for an earlier vacancy.

February 16th, 2008, 22:56	#26
SmitteyB Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 1,942	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle Vote Alpa 2008 At Colgan!! __________________ Colgan SAAB FO "Colgan Air...Pissing off the world 34 people at a time"

February 16th, 2008, 23:33	#28
SmitteyB Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 1,942	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle I think you're wrong, but we'll see come a few weeks. __________________ Colgan SAAB FO "Colgan Air...Pissing off the world 34 people at a time"

February 16th, 2008, 23:49	#29
wheelsup Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: _ Posts: 5,181	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle I think it's ironic that some people will say to not go to Pinnacle because they feel it's not a great place to work but it got them a quick upgrade and got them to where they wanted to end up in a timely fashion. Would you rather sit right seat at Horizon for 6 years or upgrade in 1-2 years and move on in 2-3 years? I know my answer. There is no future at the regional level. __________________ "It takes just as much time to be nice to someone as it does to be a jerk."

February 17th, 2008, 03:22	#31
blee256 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lower canada Posts: 1,604	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle I would suggest going to Mesaba as well. If you live in MSP, try compass as well. I have no idea how they are viewed by NWA. As far as pinnacle goes...The negatives outweigh the positives by far. The pay is the worst in the industry. Even mesa. The work rules are so bad, that you make no soft time. You actually lose money with the free 15 minutes over trip value. 50% dh and cx pay while everyone else gets 100%. and management pisses on pilots with threatening memos about sick time, and telling you meal breaks are a luxury. But if you live in one of the domiciles I would come. because commuting sucks. If you can survive the pay, its not bad once you get off reserve. Everyone says they get extended and JM'ed like crazy, but i have only been extended once during my first month while i was on reserve. And I have denied it twice. I have never been junior manned. They have tried only a handful of times. good luck __________________ According to a report by Goldman Sachs economists, "the most important contributor to higher profit margins over the past five years has been a decline in labor's share of national income."

February 18th, 2008, 22:08	#33
Shhhh, not while im flyin Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 66	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle Well I live in Atl, but there are only a few options there but I have alot of family in MEM, so if I had to commute it wouldnt be too much of a prob. Wouldnt need a crashpad or airport food. If upgrade time is short im all for it. Pay is horrible industry wide so ive seen. But if its too low then..... I dont even know what junior manned is but if its extra time then wouldnt you wanna work it since pay is soo low?? or am i just being naive

February 18th, 2008, 22:35	#34
blee256 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lower canada Posts: 1,604	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle We have an ATL base and a MEM base, so pinnacle is decent choice. Have you looked at ASA? junior manning, is when they call you on your day off and make you come in to work. You can get around that however by....NOT ANSWERING YOUR PHONE! as long as you dont pick up, your not obligated to come in. __________________ According to a report by Goldman Sachs economists, "the most important contributor to higher profit margins over the past five years has been a decline in labor's share of national income."

February 18th, 2008, 22:40	#35
PCL_128 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: ATL Posts: 3,223	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle Work at ASA if possible. Much better company with reasonable upgrade time and a brand new contract that's close to industry-leading. __________________ Not one nickel, not one job. No concessions!

February 19th, 2008, 00:08	#41
Shhhh, not while im flyin Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 66	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle yeh, ima apply to asa. as well as shuttle america (republic). But considering the bases i wanted an opinion on pinnacle

February 19th, 2008, 10:15	#42
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,252	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle If you live in ATL, go with one of the other Delta Connection carriers. If you want Memphis, go Mesaba. The future is way too cloudy here. The fact that Delta and NWA could merge leaves a HUGE question mark as to if MEM will even still be a base. Who knows? Those that think the contract will get done soon.....I'm wouldn't bet several months of pay and seniority on that. We've already got TWO arbitration decisions that are MONTHS past due. Either of those arbitration issues would be a huge win if it went our way. If BOTH went our way....damn. Our management team has tried to illegally alter pay rates without union agreement once, and they HAVE done it as of a few weeks ago. They "graciously" gave the CAs on the -900 a 5% pay increase, yet the FOs still get nada. Nevermind the fact that even with the 5%, we've still got one of the lowest -900 pay rates in the industry. They're having trouble getting guys to bid ATL b/c of the pay, so they "decided" to raise the pay. Guess what guys? RLA says you CAN'T DO THAT. You have to negotiate the whole contract or none at all, which means no picking and choosing what you want. I'd expect an ALPA lawsuit on this one soon, and if it's successful, it'll be followed by a 30 day cooling off period....which will probably result in a PEB to keep us from striking. The way I (and other people) see it, is that management is already imposing some of the terms they want. Under the RLA, that's one of the definitions of "self-help" on the management side of the table. ASA was in contract negotiations forever, and they're management never pulled these tactics. In the past year, our management has installed the aforementioned pay rates illegally, bought a non-union carrier with the threat of whipsawing us against them (previously they were trying to negotiate relief in the scope clause to start one, but I guess since Colgan already existed it's different now?!?!), changed the sick policy about 4 times without union consultation, threatened pilots with multiple memos (if you want me to do something, change the FOM. I don't have room in my flight bag for a "memo binder"), TOLD scheduling to violate the contract multiple times just to get flying covered (just get the flights covered. The pilots can grieve it later) and sent multiple letters to pilots' homes in a blatant scare tactic aimed at their families (we don't have money for a new contract, but we can send 1300 letters via FedEx on a Sat). Rumor I heard this week is we have ZERO FOs for the March classes. None. Zip. Zilch. Why? There are better places to work that are hiring right now. If I wasn't gonna upgrade in a few months and wasn't almost in the top half of the seniority list already, I'd be at Mesaba right now..... __________________ "I'm The Doctor, by the way. Run for your life!"

February 19th, 2008, 10:24	#43
Firebird2XC Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Big D Posts: 1,322	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle As far out as upgrade appears to be for Eagle newhires, there were Pinnacle expatriots in the class that started just before mine. Run off, they were. __________________ “The conduct of TSA was cruel and unnecessary,” said Ms Allred. “The last time that I checked a nipple was not a dangerous weapon.” - Charlie (credentials in profile)

February 20th, 2008, 20:18	#47
blee256 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lower canada Posts: 1,604	Re: To Pinnacle or not to Pinnacle I know we cant fill our classes. But zero, zilch, nada showing up, thats unheard of. __________________ According to a report by Goldman Sachs economists, "the most important contributor to higher profit margins over the past five years has been a decline in labor's share of national income."

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