Jet Transition?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by av8sean

Actually I used the word "bias" for a reason. When a group of people (who are not surprisingly mostly all ex-flight instructors) recommend to spend 2+ months and $5000+ getting all the CFI stuff done, and then ridicule people for spending the same amount of money and less time to goto a Jet training program, I really am suspicious of their motives. I assume by the name of this website that everyones goal is to get a "jet career", and to that end a RJ course is probably the fastest and efficient way to do it. I'd bet serious money that the pass/fail rate for RJ course people versus CFI's is actually higher.

Motives? No motive. With the jet transition you get....well, an interview. With the CFIs you get ratings, knowledge and a chance to make yourself a better pilot....and an interview. I just think it's a better buy. Would you rather spend $1000 on a course telling you about an HDTV or spend $1000 on an HDTV? With the jet course you're paying to get an interview. With the CFI's you're paying roughly a couple thousand less and getting something in return. Not only do you get the ratings, but you also get experience. If an economic downturn hits and places start furloughing, where are the 500 hour jet transition guys gonna go if they get furloughed? At least I have a fall back if my company strikes itself into non-existance. I can go back to instructing and continue building time towards another flying job. The jet transition guys don't have the same option.

It's not a question of motives, it's a question of more bang for your buck.

[Seggy]

The most important thing that I learned from being a CFI is dealing with people in a wide variety of situations related in an aviation manner.

That is invaluable a transition course does NOT teach you that.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

But I've had COUNTLESS PMs sent to me by MANY people seriously wondering about RJ bridge programs, goods/bads, advices in general for bridge program, etc.

Sure, these people could have posted a thread.... but they all saw where it was going to go (south).

Thanks for proving our point for us. If RJBPs were such a good thing, and such an acceptable method to advance yourself, it should be spoken openly about in PUBLIC. Instead, people know that it is not accepted and they don’t want their peers to know that they are considering doing it. So instead of illuminating veterans with its virtues, you hide the activities in a back room like a drug addict.

Originally Posted by av8sean

When a group of people recommend to spend 2+ months and $5000+ getting all the CFI stuff done, and then ridicule people for spending the same amount of money and less time to goto a Jet training program, I really am suspicious of their motives.

Not quite. You spend $5K on CFI ratings and you have a ticket in your pocket forever. When you spend $5K on a RJ course you get a VISA receipt and the comfort of having eroded another piece of the industry. Congratulations.

Originally Posted by av8sean

I'd bet serious money that the pass/fail rate for RJ course people versus CFI's is actually higher.

Another poor comparison. I would certainly hope they did better, they just spent $5K on a sim prep. How about putting the CFI and the “RJ’er” through airline indoc BEFORE he takes the course. Or how about CFIs that went through the course with non-CFIs.

The CFIs also learned about defense mechanisms seen in this issue like "fight or flight" and denial.

[Gonzo]

What about the people that do neither? I am not going to get my CFI at this point (I am just going to rent to meet the tt) and am not going to take an RJ course.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

What about the people that do neither? I am not going to get my CFI at this point (I am just going to rent to meet the tt) and am not going to take an RJ course.

I don't care if you take an RJ course, time build, or fly daddy's 172. I just think anyone who doesn't CFI is missing out on a potentially great learning experience.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I don't care if you take an RJ course, time build, or fly daddy's 172. I just think anyone who doesn't CFI is missing out on a potentially great learning experience.

But at this point the cost is the biggest thing both time and money. 15 CFI's and five flight schools over the last year. I have spend to much. Starting over at each school and new cfi gets old real fast.

[BobDDuck]

Gonzo, it's not about CFIing vs RJ Courses. It's about experience. If you are going to rent a 172 and tool around in it to get 500 hours, that's fine. But make sure you actually DO stuff in that time. Not just repetitive point A to point B and back. Go fly into congested airspace. Go fly into some (manageable) weather. Force yourself into situations where YOU have to make hard decisions. Fly with other people. Get used to sitting next to a guy in a hot and sticky (or freezing cold) airplane for a few hours. That's what experience is about.

The Anti RJ course people are NOT saying (for the most part) that CFIing is the only way. It's just that MOST of them got their experience that way and hence, it's what they know. I don't think anybody who CFIed to get their time would say going to fly freight is a bad thing. It's just that they don't know anything about it.

I'm sure there are a few people who did both (Lloyd comes to mind, and maybe when he's done feeling sorry for himself about how crappy his job currently is he could talk about the different types of experience gained from instructing versus running freight...)

It just seems like there are a group of people who's goal is to get into a jet as fast as they can and aren't concerned about the fact that once they get there (and they with an RJ course they probably will... it DOES teach you how to get through ground and sim) will have NO CLUE as to what is actually going on in the airplane. The right seat of a jet (or a prop for that matter) is NOT the place to be learning basic stuff you should have learned in a Cessna or a light twin.

You got your RJ job fast? Who cares. If you suck at the basics you're not helping anybody but your self.

And that's what this is mostly about. I'm generalizing, but the ME generation, that thank god I somehow avoided, doesn't really care that they aren't qualified for the job. They got it and they're sitting in their jet and that's all that matters.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by av8sean

Actually I used the word "bias" for a reason. When a group of people (who are not surprisingly mostly all ex-flight instructors) recommend to spend 2+ months and $5000+ getting all the CFI stuff done, and then ridicule people for spending the same amount of money and less time to goto a Jet training program, I really am suspicious of their motives. I assume by the name of this website that everyones goal is to get a "jet career", and to that end a RJ course is probably the fastest and efficient way to do it. I'd bet serious money that the pass/fail rate for RJ course people versus CFI's is actually higher.

How about air carrier trainers who were involved in the training of potential applicants and in the end, involved in starting the process of the termination when they couldn't hack it. What if they were to tell you that the best applicants they saw were flight instructors because they could critique themselves, had SOLID CRM skills and were, all in all, better sticks than the applicants who got their time through other means? What if you had a few more trainers here who have actually been involved in training PFTers?

I can think of 5 of the former, and 4 of the later that are active on these forums. What would you say then? Still biased, or trying to help you out and give you advice so YOU don't make a bad decision that they saw countless people make?

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Gonzo, it's not about CFIing vs RJ Courses. It's about experience. If you are going to rent a 172 and tool around in it to get 500 hours, that's fine. But make sure you actually DO stuff in that time. Not just repetitive point A to point B and back. Go fly into congested airspace. Go fly into some (manageable) weather. Force yourself into situations where YOU have to make hard decisions. Fly with other people. Get used to sitting next to a guy in a hot and sticky (or freezing cold) airplane for a few hours. That's what experience is about.

The Anti RJ course people are NOT saying (for the most part) that CFIing is the only way. It's just that MOST of them got their experience that way and hence, it's what they know. I don't think anybody who CFIed to get their time would say going to fly freight is a bad thing. It's just that they don't know anything about it.

I'm sure there are a few people who did both (Lloyd comes to mind, and maybe when he's done feeling sorry for himself about how crappy his job currently is he could talk about the different types of experience gained from instructing versus running freight...)

It just seems like there are a group of people who's goal is to get into a jet as fast as they can and aren't concerned about the fact that once they get there (and they with an RJ course they probably will... it DOES teach you how to get through ground and sim) will have NO CLUE as to what is actually going on in the airplane. The right seat of a jet (or a prop for that matter) is NOT the place to be learning basic stuff you should have learned in a Cessna or a light twin.

You got your RJ job fast? Who cares. If you suck at the basics you're not helping anybody but your self.

And that's what this is mostly about. I'm generalizing, but the ME generation, that thank god I somehow avoided, doesn't really care that they aren't qualified for the job. They got it and they're sitting in their jet and that's all that matters.

Thanks for writing that. I started to write something eerily similar a little while ago, but got side-tracked. You wrote it better than I was going to.

(Lloyd comes to mind, and maybe when he's done feeling sorry for himself about how crappy his job currently is he could...)

...and that's some funny stuff right there.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

It just seems like there are a group of people who's goal is to get into a jet as fast as they can and aren't concerned about the fact that once they get there (and they with an RJ course they probably will... it DOES teach you how to get through ground and sim) will have NO CLUE as to what is actually going on in the airplane. The right seat of a jet (or a prop for that matter) is NOT the place to be learning basic stuff you should have learned in a Cessna or a light twin.

I keep reading about the CA on the board that have FO's without basic knowledge and skills and can't see how. How do they pass the IR and CMEL without it. Maybe because I fly around Atlanta area and fly some /A or /U planes when I fly IFR I see things differently. Maybe the PTS is to easy.

[jtrain609]

Because you can fake your way through a checkride, trust me, I know all about it!

You can't fake your way through your first 100 hours of dual given without getting a violation at the least, or getting yourself or your student hurt at the most.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Because you can fake your way through a checkride, trust me, I know all about it!

You can't fake your way through your first 100 hours of dual given without getting a violation at the least, or getting yourself or your student hurt at the most.

Am I the only one that finds it sad that the FAA is making people commercial pilots without the skills to be commercial pilot.

But I think alot of people are missing something big and that is, does CFIing make you a better pilot or is it the type of person that wants to be a CFI is more likely to be open to learning new things.

[jtrain609]

I think the requirements to pass a commercial check ride are laughable at best, personally.

I think flight instructing makes you a better pilot. It will force you, whether you're interested or not, to chill out about somebody flying you around, make decisions, communicate well, critique yourself, and a host of other things. Whether you were interested in able to do those things before won't matter, flight instructing will put you in a position where you're required to or you'll you'll get violated, get hurt or get fired.

Personally? I think that sink or swim situation is good for people, because you'll be put in it countless times in your career.

I've also got this view that if you want to better yourself, then sometimes you have to do things that are going to hurt now but help you in the long run. But again, with the "me" generation (that I guess I'm supposed to be a part of) they don't want to work hard to be good, they just want to be awesome without any hard work. Those people are called hacks as far as I'm concerned.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

How do they pass the IR and CMEL without it.

Those ratings are licenses to learn. Nobody should think that just because they have the paper and are LEGAL do something means they are capable of it.

When I was instructing at ATP I got a pair of 90 day students. One of them had her instrument rating the other one didn't. Despite the fact she was already rated I trained them together so she went through the entire IR training environment again (minus the checkride). She was pretty good about doing it despite having seen most of it before. However, one day we were heading out to Long Beach from Phoenix and just over Palm Springs ran into some weather. The upshot was we iced up pretty good (faster then I've ever seen) and started losing altitude. She was flying but got so scared that she let go of the airplane and started hyperventilating. The situation was serious but not severe. We were at 11,000 feet and there were multiple VMC airports underneath us. And was we broke out of the clouds at 10,000 which was still above the MEA. However, it was the first time she had ever been in a situation that got out of her control in an airplane.

After we landed and talked about it she realized that just because she had the paper that said she could fly in the clouds, she wasn't ready to do so with out a more competent person (haha? me?) in the other seat. THAT'S how you learn. If you never go in the clouds (which she hadn't before she started training at ATP) you'll never learn how to deal with them. She's an FO (maybe even a Captain now) at Great Lakes, so I'm guessing she can handle hand flying in IMC just fine now.

That was the point I was trying to make earlier. Somebody who just get the ratings and then goes on to bigger faster things really has never had a chance to use the ratings and actually learn.

I'll make a confession while I'm at it. I have over 3000 hours of flight time now and only 14 hours of it is solo. I did the bare min to get my private and then immediately went down to Florida to start getting the rest of my ratings. From there I instructed for a year and got about 1.5 of solo time doing MX checks on aircraft or ferrying them to a near by airport (IWA-->Chandler for you PHX people) and accumulating .3 or .4 on the hobbs every time. I didn't take an airplane somewhere, outside of a training flight, to get something to eat until last summer, after I'd already been flying a jet for 2 years. I'll admit, I missed out on a lot of experiences that probably would have made me a better pilot.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Thanks for proving our point for us. If RJBPs were such a good thing, and such an acceptable method to advance yourself, it should be spoken openly about in PUBLIC.
Instead, people know that it is not accepted and they don’t want their peers to know that they are considering doing it. So instead of illuminating veterans with its virtues, you hide the activities in a back room like a drug addict.

No, the problem is that every time a RJ course thread starts, it ends up as being a b*tchfest (pardon the french).

That's what I meant.

And quite a few pilot mentors I've had (RJ Captains and a couple major FOs), were for the RJ bridge course. Now contrast that to the professional pilots here who are against it. All I'm saying is that the view on jetcareers is NOT universal of ALL major airline pilots.... and that's what people should realize.

As I said before, to each his own.


If someone wants to CFI, more power to them. If they wanna take a RJ course instead, more power to them.

And about that "being ready to fly a jet" thing, it's all relative. I got in with less than 250 hrs, and I made it through training, IOE, and the 100 hrs on the line (consolidation of knowledge/skills) just fine.

It can be done, if a person wants to. Thing is, I'm not even the lowest time pilot to be hired at my regional. There are PLENTY of low time pilots (lower than my TT) who got hired here. The lowest I heard of, and knew a guy, was 193TT at the time he got hired in the CRJ at my regional. He's been here almost one year now.


To each his own, I guess.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Those ratings are licenses to learn. Nobody should think that just because they have the paper and are LEGAL do something means they are capable of it.

I think people need to try new things. There is no point having an instrument rating if you only fly VFR. Last year I flow down to GPT in a 172 and every at the flight school could not believe we(Me and a non-pilot friend) were going because it was OVC 005. There were three airports reporting VMC near by. It was a fun flight broke out at 3500 feet. By the way before that flight a I had never gone up in anything less the OVC 015. My point is pilots need to try new (safe) things and have fun being a pilot.

[surreal1221]

I suppose my largest problem, besides the fact that these damn things erode the profession even more is the following.

The people I see doing the RJ courses, are not looking to work harder for a job. Err, potential job.

They see the RJ courses as a way of short-cutting the process, working less, and not developing the skill required.

Sure, I could do some stupid RJ course and never put in anytime worth studying the systems, or even how the airplane flies - but I'll come away from it with a damn certificate saying I completed some half-cocked training program and more than likely that'll be enough for me to get into the door and a class date.

It's ridiculous.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I suppose my largest problem, besides the fact that these damn things erode the profession even more is the following.

The people I see doing the RJ courses, are not looking to work harder for a job. Err, potential job.

They see the RJ courses as a way of short-cutting the process, working less, and not developing the skill required.

Sure, I could do some stupid RJ course and never put in anytime worth studying the systems, or even how the airplane flies - but I'll come away from it with a damn certificate saying I completed some half-cocked training program and more than likely that'll be enough for me to get into the door and a class date.

It's ridiculous.

You get it

It's not the CFIing that makes the pilot better it is the the type that is a CFI.

It's not the RJ course that is bad but the type of pilots that want a short cut and don't want to learn that is the problem.

[surreal1221]

Hell yes I get it Gonzo.

I'm a damn CFI!!!

That, and I respect the profession enough to not devalue it by doing one of these half-cocked courses.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

And about that "being ready to fly a jet" thing, it's all relative. I got in with less than 250 hrs, and I made it through training, IOE, and the 100 hrs on the line (consolidation of knowledge/skills) just fine.

Says you. I'd be wondering what those captains you flew with for the first 100 hours thought. Hell, you may be super pilot and it was all good, but from what I've seen/heard, there have been some pretty interesting things going on during the first couple of hundred hours (or more) for some guys.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Says you. I'd be wondering what those captains you flew with for the first 100 hours thought. Hell, you may be super pilot and it was all good, but from what I've seen/heard, there have been some pretty interesting things going on during the first couple of hundred hours (or more) for some guys.

Ask 'em! I've had ex-Pinnacle Captains tell me, "Hey, I talked to an ol' buddy of mine [insert Captain name here], he said he flew with you last week, and that you were great."

My checkairman that signed me off said I was ahead of the pack from what he had seen with other pilots. Even with my low time, he still signed me off with 30 hrs of IOE (which is the minimum required if you have less than 1000 hrs TT).

I've had current Pinnacle pilots come up to me and when they see my ID (so when they see my name), they say, "hey, you're xxxxxxxx?" I've heard good things about you from [insert pilot I flew with]. etc. etc.

Believe me, if I sucked or if I was bad, I would know about it.





Don't be mistaken.... first couple hundred hrs are challenging for anyone, even that 1000 hr pilot who has slugged a C152 around the pattern for all 1000 of those hours.


Plenty of low time pilots make it just A okay in a Part 121 cockpit. M. Szulka did, and no one chewed him out.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

To those folks saying RJ courses are shortcuts, check your regional minimums again. MOST regional minimums (even WITHOUT a RJ course), are 250tt-500tt and just a multi engine rating and 25-50 hrs multi engine.

With todays minimums, RJ courses are hardly a shortcut. You can get an interview at most regionals out there with just 250-500 TT and 25-50ME time.... and that's with no RJ course.

[surreal1221]

C_C,

You suck.



As far as your assertion that "minimums are low as it is, without an RJ course" I will gracefully disagree.

Those who interview with 250/50 (if even that much), may yes - get an interview, but not one who has applied at the big down south Atlanta based regional has been given a class date UNTIL successfully completing an ad-hoc RJ course from the airline's approved list of vendors of such program.

So, yes, one might be able to apply, and get called for an interview, but you may not be offered a class date until after you complete a uber-cool jet course.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

C_C,

You suck.



As far as your assertion that "minimums are low as it is, without an RJ course" I will gracefully disagree.

Those who interview with 250/50 (if even that much), may yes - get an interview, but not one who has applied at the big down south Atlanta based regional has been given a class date UNTIL successfully completing an ad-hoc RJ course from the airline's approved list of vendors of such program.

So, yes, one might be able to apply, and get called for an interview, but you may not be offered a class date until after you complete a uber-cool jet course.

Know a guy hired at Piedmont with 260 hrs and 40 hrs ME time. No RJ course.

Know a guy hired at PSA with 275 hrs and 50 hrs ME time. No RJ course.

Know a guy hired at Mesaba with 300 hrs total time and 40 hrs ME time. No RJ course.

Know two guys hired at TSA with about 270 hrs total time each, one with 30 hrs ME and one with 50 hrs ME. No RJ courses for either of them.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

And for ASA, you need 500 TT and 50 ME if you have no prior RJ course. That's per their website.

So my previous statement still stands correct:

With todays minimums, RJ courses are hardly a shortcut. You can get an interview at most regionals out there with just 250-500 TT and 25-50ME time.... and that's with no RJ course.