Flaps Failing is no fun

[mrivc211]

Enroute from SLC to PSC, Ding......flaps failed. Returned to the field. This is where it got interesting. I've done it in the sim a bunch, but in real life its much different. Plane, was easier to control, but the difference was in the sim you can nudge it down pretty good, in real life, a little too much nudging and you've got the FAA at your door step. It's a good thing we voted in ALPA for legal services. Luckily I won't need any. Anyways, on approach the RVR went down to 2400, 1200, 1800. Ref speed was 175 KIAS the whole way down. While on final we could see the runway just fine, the sun had just set, and when I got into the flare, I lost sight of the ground. One of those, you can only see lights but no ground landing. Well, if flaps are 45, speed is down to 130, that might be ok, but with flaps at 0, and ref speed at 175, once the air stops moving across the wing, PLAP! on the ground you go. So since I lost sight of the ground, its hard to judge when to let it sit, I noticed airspeed rapidly decreasing, and around we went. We gave it a second try.

Second time around, same thing, it wanted to flare forever. But this time we choose 34R with a little better vis for the touchdown. RVR was 2600, 1800, 1000. When we hit the end, which we used the entire runway, we found ourselves in 0/0 vis. Nearly mistook the taxiway for the edge of the taxiway. Made it back to the gate, safe, with no scratches, and no one hurt.

1.5 hour sit now, and off to FCA we go.



BTW-Don I returned your PM but i just read you can't get any. So send me your private email again.

[kellwolf]

Heh. Glad to know I wasn't the only one to get a flaps fail over the weekend. Actually, I got two back to back......

[Nick]

175 knots! That is fast.

Sounds like a job well done in something the CRJs seem to get a lot from what I hear.

[WAFlyBoy]

I had one on IOE going into Edmonton. Luckily, we had a clear night, dry runway, and light airplane. Skipper got her stopped with half the runway remaining.

[coa787]

Nice job getting the plane back to the gate safely!

[DE727UPS]

"Don I returned your PM but i just read you can't get any."

I'm sure I could get as much as I could handle. I just choose not to....

[BobDDuck]

Flaps failing are pretty much right of passage in the CRJ. It's absolute crap that the system is certified the way it is.

Not second guessing anything you did (it sounds like you did a damn good job), but if the failed at zero (which with the 175 knot speed it sounds like they did) why didn't you continue to your destination, or at least someplace that had better weather? Also, I THINK if I landed at 2400 RVR with a flaps zero landing (and a go around the first time) I would be done for the day. More power to you for continuing your day though.

Either way, nicely handled.

[Lee D]

Ugghhh! Sounds exciting, but not the fun kind. Nice job though!

[aerospacepilot]

Just curious...

What do you guys say to the pax in that situation? Do you tell them the flaps failed, and you will need to return to the airport. Do you tell them the landing may be faster/harder than normal. What do you say?
Thanks.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Enroute from SLC to PSC, Ding......flaps failed. Returned to the field. This is where it got interesting. I've done it in the sim a bunch, but in real life its much different. Plane, was easier to control, but the difference was in the sim you can nudge it down pretty good, in real life, a little too much nudging and you've got the FAA at your door step. It's a good thing we voted in ALPA for legal services. Luckily I won't need any. Anyways, on approach the RVR went down to 2400, 1200, 1800. Ref speed was 175 KIAS the whole way down. While on final we could see the runway just fine, the sun had just set, and when I got into the flare, I lost sight of the ground. One of those, you can only see lights but no ground landing. Well, if flaps are 45, speed is down to 130, that might be ok, but with flaps at 0, and ref speed at 175, once the air stops moving across the wing, PLAP! on the ground you go. So since I lost sight of the ground, its hard to judge when to let it sit, I noticed airspeed rapidly decreasing, and around we went. We gave it a second try.

Second time around, same thing, it wanted to flare forever. But this time we choose 34R with a little better vis for the touchdown. RVR was 2600, 1800, 1000. When we hit the end, which we used the entire runway, we found ourselves in 0/0 vis. Nearly mistook the taxiway for the edge of the taxiway. Made it back to the gate, safe, with no scratches, and no one hurt.

1.5 hour sit now, and off to FCA we go.



BTW-Don I returned your PM but i just read you can't get any. So send me your private email again.

Was this in a 200, or 700?

[BobDDuck]

I'm guessing the 200.

The 700 has a EMER FLAP override switch that pretty much forces the flaps part way out (20 flaps and 8 slats I think).

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm guessing the 200.

The 700 has a EMER FLAP override switch that pretty much forces the flaps part way out (20 flaps and 8 slats I think).

I figured as much. I never heard about Airbus or Boeing jets having flaps fail.

They must not fail as often as regional jets!

[BobDDuck]

Actually the flaps are a huge problem on the CR2. I don't think the JungleJet or the bigger Canadian Specials have that problem.

The CR2 flaps are driven by two electric motors that sit in the main landing gear bays. They drive "flex shafts" which drive the individual flaps on each side down. There are about a hundred things that can go wrong with the system and if any of them do, it freezes the flaps right there.

[PGT]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Actually the flaps are a huge problem on the CR2. I don't think the JungleJet or the bigger Canadian Specials have that problem.

The CR2 flaps are driven by two electric motors that sit in the main landing gear bays. They drive "flex shafts" which drive the individual flaps on each side down. There are about a hundred things that can go wrong with the system and if any of them do, it freezes the flaps right there.

Wow sounds like a great design....

[TheAlchemist]

It was fun on the C182...

[EineBeBoP]

Originally Posted by aerospacepilot

Just curious...

What do you guys say to the pax in that situation? Do you tell them the flaps failed, and you will need to return to the airport. Do you tell them the landing may be faster/harder than normal. What do you say?
Thanks.

Im really curious about this too.

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I'm guessing the 200.

The 700 has a EMER FLAP override switch that pretty much forces the flaps part way out (20 flaps and 8 slats I think).

If you fly the CRJ you have or will experience some sort of flaps failure. That's why it's a required item on every recurrent at just about every airline that operates the CRJ.

The EMER FLAP is just like a flap handle that will extend the slats to 25 degrees and flaps to 20. There are very few instances in the QRH that will lead you to use it, it's mostly used if the flap/slat lever has somehow been disconnected and won't command the flaps/slats to move. It works to extend and retract the flaps/slats. If the PDU's conk out you're SOL. (Guess who's teaching 700 differences right now )

[mrivc211]

You just tell them only what they need to know. First speak to your FA to get them in the loop. Then, just be honest, but only tell them what they need to know. Or your gonna get a guy in the back trying to quarterback the whole thing till you get there.

[Swen]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Don I returned your PM but i just read you can't get any."

I'm sure I could get as much as I could handle. I just choose not to....

lol...you handled that like a champ!

[mrivc211]

Wow, I just got that. Talk about being outta that mind set for the past year. Sheesh. Women, what they'll do to a guy.

[surreal1221]

I bet you're glad you did that RJ transition course now huh?

[Velocipede]

Who told you to flare at 175 kts? In the DC-9 and 737, flaring with no flaps really extends your float.

While, I'm not a CRJ puke, I'll bet if you just hold your attitude and let the beast land, you wouldn't have plopped down so hard at the end...the flare caused that.

[PCL_128]

Velo, that won't work in the CRJ. The thing will hit really dang hard, and it'll probably be enough to require a hard landing inspection. Doing that in the sim will get you the "red screen of death." You need to flare, but just barely.

[cime_sp]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

You just tell them only what they need to know. First speak to your FA to get them in the loop. Then, just be honest, but only tell them what they need to know. Or your gonna get a guy in the back trying to quarterback the whole thing till you get there.

Ah yes...the dreaded flaps faile at zero in the 200. I had it last winter during a snowstorm in GRR with not enough fuel to get anywhere else. Nothing like 175kts in 1 mile blowing snow to a contaminated runway to pucker you up a little bit. I had to go to the Cantina after that and get some of those $3 pitchers of PBR!!!!


It's funny how you talk to folks and the flaps NEVER seem to fail when the weather is good.

The other right of passage in the CRJ is having a window shatter on you. Can't wait for that one.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Actually the flaps are a huge problem on the CR2. I don't think the JungleJet or the bigger Canadian Specials have that problem.

The CR2 flaps are driven by two electric motors that sit in the main landing gear bays. They drive "flex shafts" which drive the individual flaps on each side down. There are about a hundred things that can go wrong with the system and if any of them do, it freezes the flaps right there.

PDU's (Power Drive Units). This week has not been kind to us with flap fails. The problem is the flap actuators. They're real P.O.S.! Water gets into the actuator via the shaft that conects to the flap, and freezes at altitude or if the OAT is less than 32 degrees. Can't be duplicated on the ground. Just one of those things. We used to leave the flaps at 20 during turns, but now the new thing is they have to be up during de-icing and are lowered just before takeoff.