Multi Sim Time Towards Commercial

[fish85]

I have 153 flight(not sim) hours and almost 20 hours in the sim. I have sel and instrument ratings. I am currently building my 50 hours of sim time towards my commercial. I have had the sim set up as a seminole. I was just wondering if this means I am required to get a multi commercial for the sim time to count.

[SIUav8er]

what kind of sim? are you doing this "sim" time with a CFI?

[JEP]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

what kind of sim? are you doing this "sim" time with a CFI?

that was my thought as well. the quote "I have had the sim set-up..." made me think it might not be so.....

[PatrickCPS]

Exactly what kind of "sim" are you using and how is it "set up?" If it is considered an AATD then yes, you can log up to 50 hours toward your commercial requirements, if that is done with an instructor. No, it does not count toward your total time.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by PatrickCPS

Exactly what kind of "sim" are you using and how is it "set up?" If it is considered an AATD then yes, you can log up to 50 hours toward your commercial requirements, if that is done with an instructor. No, it does not count toward your total time.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I believe it does count towards your Total Time (in regards to commercial requirements).

If you have 200 hrs (actual flight time) and 50 hours of Sim, you now have the Total Time (TT) required for the commercial ride. Assuming of course your 200 hours meets the required training (day vfr, night vfr, and solo x/c ....etc.)

[minitour]

It doesn't count as total time or multi-engine time. You may substitute the "sim" time for some total time for the certificate.

-mini

[JEP]

Originally Posted by minitour

It doesn't count as total time or multi-engine time. You may substitute the "sim" time for some total time for the certificate.

-mini

....(i) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements for an airplane or powered-lift rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought; ......

200 (flight time) + 50 (sim) = 250 total (aeronautical experience requirements) time....


Does it count as Total Flight time = No
Does it count as Total Time required for the rating = Yes

[minitour]

Originally Posted by JEP

Does it count as Total Flight time = No
Does it count as Total Time required for the rating = Yes

...and see how far that gets you in the interview. Sim time is not part of Total Time. It is Simulator time.

-mini

[JEP]

Originally Posted by minitour

...and see how far that gets you in the interview. Sim time is not part of Total Time. It is Simulator time.

-mini

...but we're not talking about an interview. we're talking about the time needed for the commercial certificate......just like you said here:

Originally Posted by minitour

It doesn't count as total time or multi-engine time. You may substitute the "sim" time for some total time for the certificate.

-mini

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by fish85

I have 153 flight(not sim) hours and almost 20 hours in the sim. I have sel and instrument ratings. I am currently building my 50 hours of sim time towards my commercial. I have had the sim set up as a seminole. I was just wondering if this means I am required to get a multi commercial for the sim time to count.

As a commercial applicant, you should be able to answer this question, but I will help you out with a reference.

61.129(i) Page 98 in my 2008 FAR AIM.

It says that it must represent the CLASS of airplane that you are seeking. If you are seeking a CSEL, the sim needs to be SEL, not MEL.

[DE727UPS]

"Maybe it's just semantics, but I believe it does count towards your Total Time"

Maybe it's just semantics, but I'd never use the words "total time" in the same sentence as "sim", unless it's to say sim doesn't count as total time. Under part 61, you can use 50 hours in an FAA approved ground trainer to meet the commercial checkride mins. There is a column in your logbook that says "simulator" or "ground trainer". That's where this time goes, in addition to "dual received", or "training time".

Total time is usually assumed to be "total flight time", which is the far right column in a logbook. I wouldn't put any sim time over there.

In any case, "sim" time must be in an FAA approved ground trainer AND be with an instructor, for it to count towards the commercial checkride.

[fish85]

I am flying an ast 300 with an instructor set up as a Seminole. I read in the regs that the 50 hours sim time has to be in the same class and category to apply to a commercial. I am not multi rated, and I am wondering if I need to get my multi commerical first or if I can just get my single commercial first, then the multi add on.

[DE727UPS]

"I read in the regs that the 50 hours sim time has to be in the same class and category to apply to a commercial."

You'll need to find a reference for me to look at. I don't believe that is correct. And, an AST300 is not a sim. It's an FAA approved ground trainer. It's all semantics, but if you are trying to discuss a tricky question, we need to be on the same page.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by JEP

...but we're not talking about an interview. we're talking about the time needed for the commercial certificate......just like you said here:

The point is simulator time (or "ground trainer" depending on who you talk to) does not count as part of your total time.

You may use so many hours of "simulator time" as a substitute for "flight time" for a certificate.

If you show up at a job with 1950TT and they want 2000TT and try saying "well 50 of my sim time counts" you will most likely be shown the door.

-mini

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by minitour

The point is simulator time (or "ground trainer" depending on who you talk to) does not count as part of your total time.

You may use so many hours of "simulator time" as a substitute for "flight time" for a certificate.

If you show up at a job with 1950TT and they want 2000TT and try saying "well 50 of my sim time counts" you will most likely be shown the door.

-mini

There is no definition of "total time" that I have found in the FAR/AIM. The sim doesn't count as a substitude for "flight time". It is part of the aeronautical experience for the license.

[SteveC]

I suppose that "Total Time" in your own logbook could mean what you want it to mean. Some people (most, actually) might define it as Total Flight Time and say that simulator time should not be included. Others might go ahead and put sim into the "total".

The important part comes when you submit your times to a prospective employer. How do they define "Total Time"? If their definition doesn't match yours, can you easily correct your numbers to give them the info that they want?

[JEP]

Originally Posted by minitour

The point is simulator time (or "ground trainer" depending on who you talk to) does not count as part of your total time.

You may use so many hours of "simulator time" as a substitute for "flight time" for a certificate.

If you show up at a job with 1950TT and they want 2000TT and try saying "well 50 of my sim time counts" you will most likely be shown the door.

-mini

which is what we were talking about.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by JEP

200 (flight time) + 50 (sim) = 250 total (aeronautical experience requirements) time....


Does it count as Total Flight time = No
Does it count as Total Time required for the rating = Yes NO

Is the aircraft moving under its own power for the purpose of flight? Oh, its not even an airplane. Thus a sim is NOT flight time because you are not in an aircraft. You flunked your checkride or just got tossed from the interview trying to use that.

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;

61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Is the aircraft moving under its own power for the purpose of flight? Oh, its not even an airplane. Thus a sim is NOT flight time because you are not in an aircraft. You flunked your checkride or just got tossed from the interview trying to use that.

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;

61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Keep reading, sir. Later on in 61.129 it talks about using 50 hours of sim time as credit for the aeronautical experience. It has to be CLASS specific, as I said before.

[athomeinthesky]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Keep reading, sir. Later on in 61.129 it talks about using 50 hours of sim time as credit for the aeronautical experience. It has to be CLASS specific, as I said before.

You can log up to 50hrs in a approved flight training device towards your commercial.

[Nihon_Ni]

61.129

(i) Permitted credit for use of a flight simulator or flight training device. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, an applicant who has not accomplished the training required by this section in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter may:
(i) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements for an airplane or powered-lift rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought; and
(ii) Credit a maximum of 25 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section for a helicopter rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents a helicopter and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought.
(2) An applicant who has accomplished the training required by this section in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter may:
(i) Credit a maximum of 100 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section for an airplane and powered-lift rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought; and
(ii) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section for a helicopter rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents a helicopter and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought. (3) Except when fewer hours are approved by the Administrator, an applicant for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane or a powered-lift rating who has satisfactorily completed an approved commercial pilot course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter need only have 190 hours of total to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni

61.129

(i) Permitted credit for use of a flight simulator or flight training device. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, an applicant who has not accomplished the training required by this section in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter may:
(i) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements for an airplane or powered-lift rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought; and
(ii) Credit a maximum of 25 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section for a helicopter rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents a helicopter and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought.
(2) An applicant who has accomplished the training required by this section in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter may:
(i) Credit a maximum of 100 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section for an airplane and powered-lift rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought; and
(ii) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section for a helicopter rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents a helicopter and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought. (3) Except when fewer hours are approved by the Administrator, an applicant for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane or a powered-lift rating who has satisfactorily completed an approved commercial pilot course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter need only have 190 hours of total to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

The point is you can't just throw sim time in there.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

There is no definition of "total time" that I have found in the FAR/AIM. The sim doesn't count as a substitude for "flight time". It is part of the aeronautical experience for the license.

So you're saying you still need 250 flight hours even if you use 50 "sim" hours?

Not at all. You may substitute 50 of the sim hours for 50 flight time hours. How do you obtain aeronautical experience? Flight time (at least that's what the FAA says - I disagree).

Originally Posted by JEP

which is what we were talking about.

Tomato - tomahto I guess. Owe ya a beer.

-mini

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by minitour

So you're saying you still need 250 flight hours even if you use 50 "sim" hours?

No. I am saying there is not definition of "total time" in the FARs. 61.129 says you may use up to 50 hours of sim time towards the 250, but they call it "credit towards the aeronautical experience."

Some people were arguing that you can't log sim time as "total time." Total time is a made up term.