Learning Experience - fronts and changing winds

[killbilly]

So last night we're practicing landings at TKI. It's dark and it's quiet out there - I'm in the pattern by myself, and the air is smooth as china silk and it's very easy for me to set up stabilized approaches. I had some good landings. Love flying at night. It's what I prefer.

TKI tower keeps clearing me for the option and all is well. And then, on climbout after a touch-n-go the MightyMighty152 gets WALLOPED from the right side - west.

I get the wings leveled, and there's another gust from the west. This un-nerved me just a little - I've flown in turbulence but never had something that sudden. I glance at Dr. CFI, and he's completely unperturbed.

"That'll be the front coming in," he says.

Next landing, he decides that I don't need the landing light. Okay, that's fine. I can see okay without it. We're getting tossed all over the place on downwind, but I manage to set up a decent final, sacrificing a neat, squared-off base turn to do it.

Next landing after that the wind has decidedly changed - the plane feels completely different. When we first started, it was 160 at 5. "Tower, XXXXX, say wind please..."

Pause. "Cessna XXXXX, wind is 260 now at 20...wait....shifting again...270 at 23."

Great. The wind swung around in less than 10 minutes. Amazing. The power of a high-pressure front sliding in over a low.

I fly the next couple of approaches with jammed left rudder on the floor and wing dipped into that wind. And they weren't too bad.

We finished for the night and Dr. CFI was grinning. "That's just awesome," he says. "We started out just doing night landings, but you got to practice night landings with no landing light in heavy crosswinds. Doesn't get much harder for a Private than that."

And I walked away feeling pretty good about that.

Conditions change very quickly. I'd always read it, but got firsthand experience last night.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Good experience for you....but, might want to check out the max demonstrated crosswind for that 152. Question that CFI on this and what to do if you are out there solo and something similar happens again.

Some of the worst horror stories that I hear happen from people flying when a front is blowing through the area and is different (stronger) than what is being forecast. Some people really get freaked out by the strong winds and lightening in the distant and just want to get on the ground. And, since the landing runway has been 17 for the past few weeks, the automatic reaction is to line up for 17. This happened to me back in June when an afternoon thunderstorm popped up out of nowhere and I was doing some solo X/C work. Wasn't a front, but the dissipating CB cloud just ahead of the rain really freaked me out. I almost lost it that day.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Good experience for you....but, might want to check out the max demonstrated crosswind for that 152. Question that CFI on this and what to do if you are out there solo and something similar happens again.

I'll check on that. Thanks.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Good experience for you....but, might want to check out the max demonstrated crosswind for that 152.

It doesn't matter what the POH says. Killbilly just demonstrated a 152 can land in 23 knot crosswind.

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Question that CFI on this and what to do if you are out there solo and something similar happens again.

Check the winds, line up on the correct runway, and fly the plane.

If you don't think you can handle it, divert to the nearest airport with a runway straight in to the wind.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by jrh

It doesn't matter what the POH says. Killbilly just demonstrated a 152 can land in 23 knot crosswind.

I should have indicated that that was a gust...it didn't stay consistent. Sorry if I confused that issue. I was writing fast.

[LoadMasterC141]

Nice work Bill. Sounds like you learned alot.

I was flying IFR, shooting approaches, when the front came through Waco last night. Definitely some serious shear. I was getting smacked around. Stall light came on several times while we were at 120 IAS! Good practice for my X-ride this weekend though.

We did a full stop in Temple and taxied around for a breather. Wind was 150 at 9 on AWOS and verified by sock. We got down to runaway 15 and the fueler called on the CTAf to let us know his instruments now show 310 at 20. Ouch!

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Great. The wind swung around in less than 10 minutes. Amazing. The power of a high-pressure front sliding in over a low.

Great story and all. . .but saying things like this get under a meteorologist's skin pretty quickly.

Fronts are not High pressure, nor Low Pressure. Fronts are simply the line that differentiates between two different air masses.

Fronts are though, associated with Low Pressure centers. So, now you can see my discomfort in pilot's classifying a front as a High-Pressure front. The cold air behind the front is yes, sure, associated with the anti-cyclonic flow associated with the High trailing the system and the associated cold-air advection.

The warm front, extending to the E from the center of the Low is there due to the combined circulation of a Low (the parent Low), and a High Pressure center upstream.

The cold front, extending to the S and SW of the Low is there due to the cold air advection provided by both the High and the Low's combined circulation of cold-air from the North.

Hopefully this clears it up.

Fronts, all of them, are associated with a Low pressure center. The movement of the parent Low center is what drives the movement of the fronts - anyone want to care to tell me what steers transitory Low pressure centers? Anyone? Anyone? Maybe next lesson right? Anyway - the temperature advection is a combined effort of the circulation of both Highs and Lows.

The spray painted areas of Blue and Red in the second paint.exe craptastic drawing show the areas of warm and cold air advection, and how they are associated with the pressure centers.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Great story and all. . .but saying things like this get under a meteorologist's skin pretty quickly.

Thanks for the explanation. I'll study this in a little more detail later, but I appreciate you taking the time here to help a student out...

+1 for you, sir.

[surreal1221]

I edited it about two times, and added another picture. Hopefully it clears up any confusion.

It's tough to keep it simple, so if you do happen to still be confused, just send me a PM.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Originally Posted by jrh

It doesn't matter what the POH says. Killbilly just demonstrated a 152 can land in 23 knot crosswind.

Check the winds, line up on the correct runway, and fly the plane.

If you don't think you can handle it, divert to the nearest airport with a runway straight in to the wind.

Well, I disagree. It DOES matter what the POH says, and you as an instructor... I would hate to see you intentionally throw out the wrong message there. Probably not what you are trying to say...right? And, I would also make it a point to teach about not flying into a TFR either

Hey man, just trying to be helpful and not trying to cause any ruckus. Politically, my comments are of a constructive manner and I am more than happy to see and experience the highs that Billy is currently experiencing in getting his wings. That is the way it should be.

But, I think a major disclaimer should be thrown out there about teaching a post solo / pre PPL student to intentionally 'possibly' exceed the cross-wind component of the airplane. This could send the wrong message that....well, I know I can do it because I did this one time with my CFI and nothing bad happened. And to empower the student to question his CFI like any good student should. Also, to use the experience to 'simulate' emergency situations of flying into frontal activity and just how to handle it (like they did). I sure wish I would have been given that training opportunity back then, as it almost cost me a permanent dirt nap from finding out the hard way.

Billy, keep up the good work and keep the stories coming and let me know when you get to the IR. I got some videos for you!

[coa787]

Good job and nice flying!

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Well, I disagree. It DOES matter what the POH says, and you as an instructor...
...
But, I think a major disclaimer should be thrown out there about teaching a post solo / pre PPL student to intentionally 'possibly' exceed the cross-wind component of the airplane. This could send the wrong message that....well,

While it would most certainly be safer to always fly within the numbers presented in the POH, I will also argue against the "demonstrated XW" number being considered a limit. The max demonstrated crosswind listed in the POH is just that, the max amount of XW they demonstrated the plane could land in controllably. That BY NO MEANS is the XW limit for that plane!! If, in testing they happened to attempt to land with a certain amount of XW and could not do so controllably then they would likely publish a XW LIMIT. So while it is certainly a good guideline to use in determining whether or not to try to land in given set of conditions (particularly if one doesn't have much flying experience in that plane or recency of experience), it should in no way shape or form be considered an actual limitation.

To offer a real world example of what I'm talking about I'll provide some ino from my present plane. I presently fly a Saab 340. In our charts for XWs there is a line that says: "This chart is based on the maximum demonstrated XW component of 35 kts. This was demonstrated on a dry runway and was found not to be limiting." Food for thought...

Kudos to the OP for your flying story, I don't think I've encountered that kind of scenario, sounds like it was fun and a great learning experience!!

[bhh1128]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

But, I think a major disclaimer should be thrown out there about teaching a post solo / pre PPL student to intentionally 'possibly' exceed the cross-wind component of the airplane. This could send the wrong message that....well, I know I can do it because I did this one time with my CFI and nothing bad happened. And to empower the student to question his CFI like any good student should

Let's all make sure we're clear here. This is not a limitation. I don't have a 152 POH on hand, but in a 172P POH for example, this number is listed in the performance section and it states:

"Note: Maximum demonstrated crosswind velocity is 15 knots (not a limitation)."

They make it pretty clear for us. I'm sure his instructor has emphasized the importance of good judgment, and knowing when to call it off and use a different runway.

[ASpilot2be]

Good story

I have had a similiar experience. I hate those afternoon winds from glaciers. On average 20-30mph winds all afternoon.

[SeanD]

Good job man. It was wind that almost made me question my flying and if I wanted to continue. Scared the living bujeezus out of me. My legs shook for hours after that. After a few days I started to miss that experience and looked forward to the next challenge.

[killbilly]

Follow-up, since a number of people seemed interested...

I asked my CFI last night about the max x-wind component on the 152, because the POH says 12kts and we were dealing with more than that. As the POH says, it's not a limitation.

So we discussed what was happening, and how to deal with it if I run into that situation myself. Basically, if I have enough rudder authority to keep it straight and feel comfortable, land it.

Other options available, depending on situation:

-go to another field with better runway
-fly around a while and wait it out
-land a little faster - more "fly it on."
-use the width of the runway to land a bit more into the wind

So we did talk about it and it was useful.

Then the plane wouldn't start so we couldn't fly last night. Stupid 152...

[jrh]

Originally Posted by killbilly

-go to another field with better runway
-fly around a while and wait it out
-land a little faster - more "fly it on."
-use the width of the runway to land a bit more into the wind

I agree 100%. Very good ideas.

A lot of pilots forget about, or were never taught, that "use the width of the runway" trick. On a 150 foot wide runway, you can turn a good 20 degrees in to the wind, and that can make a big difference, depending on the circumstances. A wind offset 20 degrees from your nose is a lot easier to deal with than a wind offset 40 degrees to the side. Take a look at a "crosswind component chart" sometime and you'll see what I mean.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by jrh

I agree 100%. Very good ideas.

A lot of pilots forget about, or were never taught, that "use the width of the runway" trick. On a 150 foot wide runway, you can turn a good 20 degrees in to the wind, and that can make a big difference, depending on the circumstances.

We do, in fact, have a 150-foot wide runway at TKI.

[taseal]

nice!

I've landed a 152 with about 18 knot crosswinds back in priv before. I was with a very good CFI and I actually couldn't do the 1st landing... went GA, he showed me how its done, and after that he helpmed me on the 3rd... it was a challenge!

just couple days ago I was in a 172 and winds like gusting 30 by me very turbulency air...

but yes, no landing light landings are tough

[moxiepilot]

cool experience Bill.

I've been caught with my pants down as a front passes through before too when it's moving quicker than anticipated. Glad it was a good leaning exp for ya.