Cargo or Airline?

[Sisson2011]

So I have always heard that cargo is the better way to go as a pilot if you can get into Fed Ex or UPS. Is this accurate? What makes one better over the other? Do cargo pilots get flight benefits? What are the lives as a cargo pilot alike schedule wise?

Just wondering thanks for the input...

Matt

[SIUav8er]

go to the homepage at www.jetcareers.com and do a little browsing. After that, come on back and ask more specific questions.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by Sisson2011

So I have always heard that cargo is the better way to go as a pilot if you can get into Fed Ex or UPS. Is this accurate? What makes one better over the other? Do cargo pilots get flight benefits? What are the lives as a cargo pilot alike schedule wise?

Just wondering thanks for the input...

Matt

Well, cargo airlines are good because they generally pay more than passenger airlines (http://airlinepilotcentral.com/), they are not as susceptible to events such as 9/11, and the cargo doesn't talk back.

That's all I know about that. I can't imagine that the scheduling differs that much between cargo and passenger airlines except for the fact that cargo pilots fly a lot during the night, especially domestic flights, but they also fly during the day. Not too sure about the benefits either. Perhaps some actual cargo pilots on the boards here could shed some more light on this.

And yes, also check out the jetcareers homepage for more info.

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by coa787

Perhaps some actual cargo pilots on the boards here could shed some more light on this.

Don??

-Rob

[PatrickCPS]

If I can add one thing here, its this: Job stability.

Cargo companies know what it costs to fly their planes and drive their trucks, and they charge accordingly. Whenever you ship anything, you pay that little line called "fuel surcharge." The cargo companies know their business, and they get a return on their investments. As such, they are durable companies, that will last the test of time, through recessions, etc.

The airlines are simply at a point where their business model doesn't work, and they are in the worst possible place for the price war THEY created, because it benefits none of them. Probably the biggest problem I have with airline life in the modern job environment, is that while you can always get a job as a qualified pilot, the pay and overall quality of life is directly tied to your seniority AT THE COMPANY YOU FLY FOR. If you fly for company A, and have 15 years in, and company A goes belly up, furloughs, or whatever, and you start flying for company B, you're back in the right seat, at the bottom of the pay scale (more likely than not). Airline Aviation is one of the only industries I can think of where advancement works this way, and quite frankly, I think its wrong.

I am a huge proponent of the idea of a national Airline Pilot Seniority List, or better yet, simply a change in the industry to where one is hired, upgraded, promoted, fired, etc based on MERIT.

Just my $.02

[coa787]

Originally Posted by PatrickCPS

If I can add one thing here, its this: Job stability.

Cargo companies know what it costs to fly their planes and drive their trucks, and they charge accordingly. Whenever you ship anything, you pay that little line called "fuel surcharge." The cargo companies know their business, and they get a return on their investments. As such, they are durable companies, that will last the test of time, through recessions, etc.

The airlines are simply at a point where their business model doesn't work, and they are in the worst possible place for the price war THEY created, because it benefits none of them. Probably the biggest problem I have with airline life in the modern job environment, is that while you can always get a job as a qualified pilot, the pay and overall quality of life is directly tied to your seniority AT THE COMPANY YOU FLY FOR. If you fly for company A, and have 15 years in, and company A goes belly up, furloughs, or whatever, and you start flying for company B, you're back in the right seat, at the bottom of the pay scale (more likely than not). Airline Aviation is one of the only industries I can think of where advancement works this way, and quite frankly, I think its wrong.

I am a huge proponent of the idea of a national Airline Pilot Seniority List, or better yet, simply a change in the industry to where one is hired, upgraded, promoted, fired, etc based on MERIT.

Just my $.02

Right, that's pretty much what happened to the pilots of Eastern Air Lines. They were there for fifteen or twenty-five years, senior captains, then the airline went under and the pilots were back to junior first officers or flight engineers at some other airlines as if they had just started with those airlines in the first place.

[athomeinthesky]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

go to the homepage at www.jetcareers.com and do a little browsing. After that, come on back and ask more specific questions.

Thats a good way to greet a newcomer

[mnixon]

I can only offer what I know, so take it for what it's worth. I'm at my second freight job, and I love it so far.

First job I hauled checks to the same places every night. I got that job when I met 135 mins, and never looked back to instruction. That was a good job because I flew my butt off, over 100 hrs a month, but at the same time, got familiar with the airports enough where I could really focus on flying the plane, rather than remembering where the FBO is. I was flying Barons, Navajos, and Caravans and made around 35 a year.

Second job where I'm at now, I'm a F/O (hopefully upgrading soon) on a Falcon 20 for an on-demand charter company. We haul everything from ear plugs (they actually paid for a 25G charter for one 7lb box of these, but I guess when a Nuclear Reactor power plant is on the verge of shutting down, pennies don't matter) all the way up to engines for auto manufacturers. We go to different places all the time in North America and it's good because I already cut my teeth on really flying, now I'm learning how to deal with high-congestion airports and airspace that I've never seen. I make around 50K here.

From hear I plan on going to another freight operator, but with bigger aircraft and a bigger scope. Hopefully Atlas or Gemini. Once I spend a few years there, I'll probably be qualified to go to UPS or FedEx. It takes time to get there, but it's doable.

Why did I pick freight over people?
1. I abhor the regionals, don't know why I just do. And before anybody gets their panties in a wad, I'm not attacking them, just saying they're not for me.
2. I like the laid back world of freight
3. When I drop the pax out of the plane by accident, they don't scream and sue.
4. No catty F/A's to deal with
5. Generally people crews look down on you as trash, and I think that's funny.
6. Lot's of time off. I worked 4 day's in December, 2 overnights, and 17 hours, your mileage may, and will vary.
7. We don't go to the same places everyday. I'd swallow a 12 guage if I had to do ATL-TOL-ATL-MCO-ATL-JKS everyday.
8. Old equipment, makes you feel like a man. (I keed) When you bring a steam powered airplane down to mins in Mexico not being able to understand a damn thing your being told off of a DME arc to an ILS, all off of two needles and DME, that's pretty neat. FMS? Yea, that's me the F/O

While FedEx and UPS are more stable by nature, that doesn't go for all freight ops. A lot of companies are hanging to the economy by a thread. What happens when people stop buying cars, another freight company just went out of business.

All in all, I love freight, and plan to make a career out of it. Hope I helped.

Originally Posted by SIU8ver

go to the homepage at www.jetcareers.com and do a little browsing. After that, come on back and ask more specific questions.

Do a little browsing here. After that, come on back and answer more questions.

[coa787]

Hey, mnixon, am I seeing double?!

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Sisson2011

So I have always heard that cargo is the better way to go as a pilot if you can get into Fed Ex or UPS. Is this accurate? What makes one better over the other? Do cargo pilots get flight benefits? What are the lives as a cargo pilot alike schedule wise?

Just wondering thanks for the input...

Matt

I don't fly freight but I did have three posts from another online forum saved in a text file.

They are a mix of FedEx and UPS so it should answer a few questions you have.






In general, there are:

1. Night Hub Turns - 2000 show, one or two legs to the sort, 1.5-3.0 hour sit/nap - one or two legs to the outstation - duty off around 0700 or earlier. Usually built in 7 days on - 7 days off. Some people like working their seven on and others look for the longer weekend layovers. For example, some of our schedules have 60 hour layovers over the weekend. Get senior and you can bid close to home and spend the weekend with the family etc. Additionally, the three day weekend that you're flying, does count on the 7-days "on" and thus you're only working 4 out of the seven with a nice break over the weekend. Bid to a nice city and you can enjoy the sights and the sounds if you aren't senior enough to bid close to your home. Here is one argument for not living in a high profile city like Denver, Atlanta or Seattle etc.

2. Day Hub Turns - 0800 show, one or two legs to the sort, 1.5-3.0 hour sit/nap/exercise - one or two legs to the outstation - duty off around 1700 followed by beer/food and a good rest. Usually built in 7 on - 7 off schedules. These may have the same weekend rules as I mentioned above.

3. AM Out and Backs - 0300 show, start at the sort, two to three legs, back to the base around 0600 to 0900. If you're an early to bed, early to rise guy - you'll love these schedules. If you can hit the rack at 1900-2000 then you're going to get quite a bit of sleep prior to your show. For the trips that arrive back around 0900, there is generally a short nap available somewhere. All in all, if you live in domicile or don't mind crashpadding during the duty week - you're golden for this type of trip. Fog can be a problem but ATC issues are mute.

4. PM Out and Backs - 1400 show, start at the sort, two to four legs, back to the base around 0000ish. Same rules apply as above but it's daytime with all the daytime problems: Holds, Thunderstorms etc. If you like to hit the rack early, this may not work for you but it generally works great for those that wish to fly during the day and live in base or stay in a crashpad during their duty week.

5. Point to Point - schedule varies as much as the time zone. However, you can fly 14 hours, sit 48, fly 8 hours, sit 24, fly 8 hours, sit 48 etc. International schedules. Dozing for dollars or as it is sometimes said, Flying happy hour to happy hour.

6. Reserve schedules:

0130-1330 - Good for early to bed early to rise
0730-1930 - Good for anyone
1330-0130 - Good for anyone
1930-0730 - For the true vampire or the masochistic. I haven't seen a single good thing about this type of shift. I haven't worked it either but maybe someone who has can chime in with their experience.

As you can see, with just a bit of seniority you can probably hold some kind of schedule that will work for you regardless of your sleep patterns. Even if you have to work on something other than your sleep pattern, you can get rest. It does take a bit of time to convert back to your "normal" schedule afterwards, there is something for everyone as seniority grows.

If you don't like flying nights - GET SENIOR and STAY SENIOR(ie. pass up on a bid or two). Bid 1330-0130 Reserve once you can hold it and ride it out like a champ until you can hold day turns or out and backs.







I have yet to meet a pilot at UPS who complains about his job because of the schedules he's flying. The reason? There's soooooo much variety in the schedules that there's something for everyone. For example

* Don't want to work much? Bid reserve and live in domicile.
* Want to only fly daytime? Knock yourself out. Plenty of that on the A300 and 757/767.
* Want to fly around the world and hang out in locales like Dubai, Hong Kong, Cologne, and Shanghai? Go fly the MD-11.
* Want a week on, week off schedule? Plenty of that on the 757 domestic fleet.
* Want a 4 on 3 off or 3 on 4 off schedule? Tons of it on all domestic fleets.
* Want to make a lot of money and don't care where you fly? Plenty of open time for you to pick up and make salary + 30%.
* Want to fly only Hawaii trips? Go bid the ONT base.
* Want to fly only South and Central America to have 3 girlfriends in each port? Bid the MIA base.
* Want to fly only transAtlantic trips to places like Paris, London, and Germany? Bid 767 international in SDF.
* Want to fly only turns? Bid any domestic base.
* Want to be in the training center and be home every night? Move to Loserville and work in training.
* Want to fly intra-Asia with first class deadheads on either end so that you can build up your frequent flyer miles (big whoopdee doo), go down to ONT
* Want to fly the B747-400F as new-hire or similar juniority? Pack your bags and bid ANC
* Want to do domestic transcons in a 747-200F? Bid the 747 SDF before it retires
* Want to work 20+ days per month giving line checks and running the school house? Become a Flight Qualified Supervisor (mgmt pilot).






As far as a "work day", I still have THAT emblazoned on my memory and I don't think life as a freight dog has changed much.

The way the week starts depends on whether or not the trip originates in the Hub or is a DH out to the field. In the case of starting in the Hub, you can expect to either DH in or drive from home, depending on your living arrangements. The Show Time will depend on the time of your departure and can be anywhere between, say, 0100 to 0330 or so.

As an engineer, you will show, check in, find your crew (or not), screw around until the time you have figured it takes to get to the jet, do the preflight and have everything ready for when the other two folks show up out there. I used to go out to the ramp without delay, just to have the time alone with the jet and be ahead of the power curve.

Depending on the trip, you can have one, two -or multiple legs to your destination, which you are generally going to arrive at as the sun is coming up -or the fog is the thickest. THEN you get to wait around an interminable amount of time for the hotel van to pick you up. Generally, you pass the “real” airline crews, all bright eyed and bushy tailed . . standing on the curb, waiting for the van ride to the airport. . as you are dragging your fatigued butt up to the front desk.

Crew rest . .broad daylight. . in a layover hotel that has no regard for the fact that the FAA mandates 8 hours before you fly again. Generally, the crew might meet for dinner between 1630-1730 local. Back to the room, freshen up, pack the bag and head back to the ramp. Preflight. .fly whatever legs it takes to get back to the Hub. . and then do your 1st Hub Turn of the week. You got a 3-5 hour turn to catch a nap, do your personal stuff. . and the routine starts all over again.

The difference between that and doing a DH out to the field is that your 1st “show time” is going to be in the early evening (1830-2000) at the field ramp. So your 1st “live” leg will be the early evening inbound to the Hub . .for the turn. You do that for as many days as the trip lasts and generally end up on Saturday AM at the field airport where you started out Monday night.

In the case of commuters who might live nearby the field airport where the trips operate to the Hub, you can “deviate” on the dead head portions, effectively giving yourself an additional 4 days off per month, with pay.

In my case, I operated a trip that ran like this: DH MEM to SAN on Sunday - crew rest till Monday PM -fly SAN/OAK -Hub Turn- OAK/SAN all week, till Saturday -crew rest until Sunday-DH-MEM. Since I never took the dead head flights from/to MEM, it was 7-8 days of pay for 5 nights of work. THAT is where seniority comes in -to be able to hold a trip that enhances lifestyle. There are many trip parings like that -to/from many cities to a Hub.

So, if you live in or nearby one of those cities, it could be worth while to stay senior in the seat/equipment that flies those trips. Or, you stay constantly junior, though upgrading . . live in the Domicile OR get to DH, on your own time and nickel to the Hub where you operate out of . . and then drag your tired bones home on the jump seat at the end of the sequence. There used to be a pretty good “trip trade” policy, so that if you couldn’t bid or hold “week on, week off” . . you can “trade” into a commutable schedule, if living in the Domicile is not a palatable option.

[mnixon]

Originally Posted by coa787

Hey, mnixon, am I seeing double?!

Now you look like the bafoon! The tables have turned! HAHA. Thanks for pointing it out.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by mnixon

Do a little browsing here. After that, come on back and answer more questions.

I think that was aimed towards SIUav8er? Yes, I agree. If you don't have any possible answers to questions that, quite frankly, seemed pretty straightforward me, then don't even bother posting anything.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by mnixon

Now you look like the bafoon! The tables have turned! HAHA. Thanks for pointing it out.

Not a problem! Thanks for making me look like a bafoon.

[mnixon]

Originally Posted by coa787

I think that was aimed towards SIUav8er? Yes, I agree. If you don't have any possible answers to questions that, quite frankly, seemed pretty straightforward me, then don't even bother posting anything.

You are correct sir! Like pop says, if you have nothing nice to say, or constructive in this case, say nothing at all.

Originally Posted by coa787

Not a problem! Thanks for making me look like a bafoon.

Your lucky, I make myself look like a bafoon all the time. I just realized I'm spelling it incorrectly at that! Buffoon

[coa787]

Well, I guess since you quoted me, there's no use in editing my post. Crap!

[coa787]

Originally Posted by mnixon

Your lucky, I make myself look like a bafoon all the time. I just realized I'm spelling it incorrectly at that! Buffoon

It should be you're. Buffoon.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by athomeinthesky

Thats a good way to greet a newcomer

That's what we do here. Send them to Google, and tell them to figure it out.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

That's what we do here. Send them to Google, and tell them to figure it out.

Exactly, these people need to get with the program.

[mnixon]

damn.