Planes to start flying low over poor people!

Maximillian_Jenius · January 10th, 2008, 21:18

Plan to reroute jets may mean more noise

By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 15 minutes ago

NEW YORK - For years, jets taking off from Newark Liberty International Airport have performed an act of mercy as they roar south.

Moments after leaving the ground, the planes bank left, out over an industrial port district, and away from the residential streets of Elizabeth, N.J., the working-class city that sits right up against the busy airport.
Maneuvers like this are a common method of sparing citizens from the window-rattling noise of jets passing overhead.

But now such practices are being dropped in some places in the Northeast as part of a federal plan to ease record flight delays. And some neighborhoods that fear they will be subjected to more noise are fighting back in court.

On Dec. 19, the Federal Aviation Administration began its first overhaul in decades of the jet routes that crisscross the country's most congested airspace — a 31,000-square-mile area around New York and Philadelphia.

The corridor has been criticized for years as one of the worst problem spots in the nation's beleaguered air traffic system. Most the paths were laid out in the 1960s. Some date from the earliest days of air travel, and airlines have been complaining for years that they are horribly outdated.

Over the next five years, the FAA will be rolling out new routes it believes can cut flight delays by as much as 20 percent. Some aviation experts say improvements are essential; nearly three quarters of all flight delays nationally are caused by backups in New York and Philadelphia.

But a closer look at the revamped flight routes shows that the changes will lead to more noise for tens of thousands of people, many of whom are already subject to the whine of jet engines because of their proximity to airports.

In Elizabeth, N.J., the changes will mean that some planes will fly straight over the center of the city.
"The FAA plan will do more harm to the city of Elizabeth than any terrorist incident," said Mayor Chris Bollwage.

"We live next to the airport, so we have to take some noise," he said. But the FAA plan, he added, stretches fairness. "There are places in town where you can touch the tires."

At least 12 lawsuits have been filed so far in an attempt to stop the plan. Congress ordered the Government Accountability Office to examine the FAA's method for choosing the new routes. Top lawmakers from several states have demanded changes. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., threatened to block Senate confirmation of acting FAA administrator Robert Sturgell if the agency doesn't halt implementation.

So far, the complaints haven't stopped the FAA. Last month, the agency began phasing in new traffic patterns at the Newark and Philadelphia airports that allow departing planes to fan out in several directions as they climb, rather than stick to a single path.

In theory, the change will allow more takeoffs per hour, but outside Philadelphia it will also mean more planes over a cluster of suburbs in Delaware County, just west of the airport.

Since the first of the changes went into effect in Philadelphia on Dec. 19, the airport said it has been getting three complaints a day about noise, compared with about one every two days in the previous three months.
FAA officials say the airspace redesign will actually lead to a reduction in noise for a majority of people, largely because the changes will allow planes to fly at higher altitudes.

But sound-modeling data released by the agency reveals that the gains and losses will not be spread evenly. Loud neighborhoods will, on average, be getting louder, while the biggest improvements will be in places that aren't that noisy to begin with.

According to the FAA, an additional 30,600 people will find themselves living in neighborhoods where the average daily aircraft noise level is 60 to 65 decibels — considered the high edge of tolerable for a residential area.
Noise at that level is far from earsplitting; experts say it is less than residents might experience if they lived next to a busy road. But it is loud enough that people have to raise their voices as a plane passes overhead.
The number of people living in areas where the average decibel level is between 55 and 60 will rise by 79,813.

The big losers will be a few communities near Newark and Philadelphia that already hear a good deal of airplane traffic because of their proximity to the airports. There will also be a slight to moderate increase in noise in parts of Morris and Sussex counties in northern New Jersey.
The big winners are people who live a little farther away, and now hear a medium amount of noise.

By 2011, the FAA estimates that there will be nearly 728,650 fewer people living in areas where the daily noise level is between 45 and 55 decibels — louder than a refrigerator hum, but quieter than two people talking in a room.

Many of those people are in a corridor running southwest from New Brunswick, N.J. There will also be noise benefits in pockets of densely populated Essex County, N.J., which includes Newark, and parts of northeastern Pennsylvania.

The opposition is not just coming from areas likely to see big changes.
Fourteen municipalities in western Connecticut have been trying to get the plan blocked, largely because it will shift an arrival path for New York's LaGuardia Airport eastward, creating what the FAA says will be slightly more noise for some towns in Connecticut.
"It's a quality-of-life issue," said Rudy Marconi, a spokesman for the Alliance for Sensible Airspace Planning and a selectman in Ridgefield, Conn., 40 miles northeast of LaGuardia. "Will I get used to it? Probably. But should I have to get used to it?"

Maybe I'm crazy, but the planes fly low over my barrio all the time were talking 3000 agl, sometimes lower.

And, I love it. If I'm asleep, on my days off, and I hear the "blowdryer" of a low flying A320.

I say "oh, there's the 10:25 Airways on arrival" as I turn over and go back to sleep!

Poor people rejoice!

E_Dawg · January 10th, 2008, 21:21

good, I hate poor people.

Maximillian_Jenius · January 10th, 2008, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

good, I hate poor people.

Well, we all don't hate you Ed!

kellwolf · January 10th, 2008, 21:25

Nice change of pace from flying over the rich people that built their houses in the landing pattern of an airport only to complain about the noise.....

I've got no sympathy for someone that either builds or buys a house near a busy airport then complains about the noise. I don't care what tax bracket they're in.

Maximillian_Jenius · January 10th, 2008, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Nice change of pace from flying over the rich people that built their houses in the landing pattern of an airport only to complain about the noise.....

I've got no sympathy for someone that either builds or buys a house near a busy airport then complains about the noise. I don't care what tax bracket they're in.

Hey, barrio living is exciting, before turning the locks you never know if you're about to get shanked, or if your car is still in it's spot!

E_Dawg · January 10th, 2008, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Well, we all don't hate you Ed!

it was tasteless

But hell, I live close enough to hear the chicago El go by. Yet I'd be about the last person on earth to complain about it!!

ctab5060X · January 10th, 2008, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I've got no sympathy for someone that either builds or buys a house near a busy airport then complains about the noise. I don't care what tax bracket they're in.

MQAAord · January 10th, 2008, 21:48

I used to live directly under the departure/arrival path of 9L/27R at ORD. (In the "concrete jungle" east of the Des Plaines river.)

They get no sympathy from me at all. The 727s & KC-135s that used to go out of there would literally shake the windows. Conversations would stop, and if you were on the phone, you had to tell the person you were talking to to hold on for a second til your hearing returned.

Fins Up · January 10th, 2008, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

good, I hate poor people.

Stephen Colbert said on his show that while the poor may complain about the noise of the rich flying their helicopters overhead to land at their rich friend's house, the rich may be annoyed by the sound of the poor's rumbling stomachs. (It's much funnier when you hear him say it.)

Snuggle · January 10th, 2008, 22:07

I live on final approach path at one of the big runways at JFK. Heavy jets fly over my house on a daily basis, even right now as I type this. It gets annoying when I'm trying to watch tv or talk on my phone. I think I've lost a bit of hearing from it too. The worst was the concord that used to come here, my room would literally shake when it flew overhead. They are only a couple of hundred feet up as they pass directly above my house. It does make for a good view though.

mastermags · January 10th, 2008, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

"The FAA plan will do more harm to the city of Elizabeth than any terrorist incident," said Mayor Chris Bollwage.

Yeah, that's gonna do wonders for your argument

OldTownPilot · January 10th, 2008, 22:51

Elizabeth is a crap hole anyway.

ASpilot2be · January 10th, 2008, 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Elizabeth is a crap hole anyway.

Is there a nice part of NJ?

tonyw · January 10th, 2008, 22:59

Max, man, you need to do something about your aviation geekdom. I like flying as much as the next guy, but damn it, when I'm at a hotel in LAX trying to sleep and I hear the planes taking off or landing....

secretapproach · January 10th, 2008, 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I've got no sympathy for someone that either builds or buys a house near a busy airport then complains about the noise. I don't care what tax bracket they're in.

I recently met a couple who bought a house off the end of the already approved extension of 9R/27L at FLL. They knew it had been approved already. I asked them why they would buy a house there when they knew the runway had been approved. They said someone had told them the runway would probably be defeated in court. Sigh...

No sympathy.

OldTownPilot · January 10th, 2008, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASpilot2be

Is there a nice part of NJ?

Seggy's pad with Swedish girls

Hootie · January 10th, 2008, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASpilot2be

Is there a nice part of NJ?

Triple No.

And wasn't it Homer Simpson who said that airplanes belong to fly over poor people?

Max where you live? You in the Hood?

Maximillian_Jenius · January 11th, 2008, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootie

Max where you live? You in the Hood?

Naw, the barrio, of downtown Mesa! Do you buzz my apt when west ops are in effect at Sky Harbor?

But, my complex has been alot quieter post Jan 1st, 2008!

Maximillian_Jenius · January 11th, 2008, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

it was tasteless

But hell, I live close enough to hear the chicago El go by. Yet I'd be about the last person on earth to complain about it!!

I know, and I was just teasin' ya back!

FlyChicaga · January 11th, 2008, 00:12

I live under the approach paths for MDW, and the noise really doesn't bother me. I'm talking Southwest B737s flying over at 1500' AGL. I even have flown over my house in the Saab at 1500' AGL... Which was definitely a cool experience. The only planes that really bother me are the freight props... They fly over at about 800' AGL at full power around 1:00 AM and are totally unsynced. I worry that they're going to take tiles off the roof!

After 9/11, I could hardly sleep during the day because there wasn't any jet noise. Seriously. Go figure.

Hootie · January 11th, 2008, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Naw, the barrio, of downtown Mesa! Do you buzz my apt when west ops are in effect at Sky Harbor?

But, my complex has been alot quieter post Jan 1st, 2008!

Aw man I used to live in the approach path a little more so than you probably. Alma School between the 202 and University, kinda sketchy at times area....but if you want a back massage at midnight on a Saturday there seemed to be a couple places very close by...lol

mtsu_av8er · January 11th, 2008, 00:14

I just had flashbacks of standing on the PT field or the grinder, stopping to "make some noise" for the Reno Air MD-80's hitting the reversers next door!

Ahhh - I wanna go back to boot camp. I can smell the Kiwi and Brasso now!!!

ASpilot2be · January 11th, 2008, 00:16

We have family friends that live right in "The cut" in Juneau. After a jet flies over you can hear the wing tip vortices rustle the trees

.

Of course the sound doesnt bother them, they are both pilots. She is a Lear Captain for a medevac company, and he works for the FAA and used to fly for LAB.

Hootie · January 11th, 2008, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

I live under the approach paths for MDW, and the noise really doesn't bother me. I'm talking Southwest B737s flying over at 1500' AGL. I even have flown over my house in the Saab at 1500' AGL... Which was definitely a cool experience. The only planes that really bother me are the freight props... They fly over at about 800' AGL at full power around 1:00 AM and are totally unsynced. I worry that they're going to take tiles off the roof!

After 9/11, I could hardly sleep during the day because there wasn't any jet noise. Seriously. Go figure.

I'm with you. The droning of an airplane doesn't bother me at all, but now I live VERY close to a busy street and between the motorcycles and fire trucks I'm about to go crazy.

Maximillian_Jenius · January 11th, 2008, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootie

Aw man I used to live in the approach path a little more so than you probably. Alma School between the 202 and University, kinda sketchy at times area....but if you want a back massage at midnight on a Saturday there seemed to be a couple places very close by...lol

That's me right there, Broadway/Country Club!

When west ops are in effect planes coming from the west and east fly over my place making the turn for the 25's!

Usually about 3000 agl. fun place. A Mesa 900 just flew over 30 secs ago! Know how I know...those 900's make a lower howling blowdryer sound then the 320's!

Oh, and yea, staying away from the main & extention intersection (2 mins by car)!

You know where crab just isn't a delectable seafood item, and Chlamydia isn't the name of a ghetto black chick!

January 10th, 2008, 21:18	#1
Maximillian_Jenius Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: KPHX, KFFZ, KIWA Posts: 18,876	Planes to start flying low over poor people! Plan to reroute jets may mean more noise By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 15 minutes ago NEW YORK - For years, jets taking off from Newark Liberty International Airport have performed an act of mercy as they roar south. Moments after leaving the ground, the planes bank left, out over an industrial port district, and away from the residential streets of Elizabeth, N.J., the working-class city that sits right up against the busy airport. Maneuvers like this are a common method of sparing citizens from the window-rattling noise of jets passing overhead. But now such practices are being dropped in some places in the Northeast as part of a federal plan to ease record flight delays. And some neighborhoods that fear they will be subjected to more noise are fighting back in court. On Dec. 19, the Federal Aviation Administration began its first overhaul in decades of the jet routes that crisscross the country's most congested airspace — a 31,000-square-mile area around New York and Philadelphia. The corridor has been criticized for years as one of the worst problem spots in the nation's beleaguered air traffic system. Most the paths were laid out in the 1960s. Some date from the earliest days of air travel, and airlines have been complaining for years that they are horribly outdated. Over the next five years, the FAA will be rolling out new routes it believes can cut flight delays by as much as 20 percent. Some aviation experts say improvements are essential; nearly three quarters of all flight delays nationally are caused by backups in New York and Philadelphia. But a closer look at the revamped flight routes shows that the changes will lead to more noise for tens of thousands of people, many of whom are already subject to the whine of jet engines because of their proximity to airports. In Elizabeth, N.J., the changes will mean that some planes will fly straight over the center of the city. "The FAA plan will do more harm to the city of Elizabeth than any terrorist incident," said Mayor Chris Bollwage. "We live next to the airport, so we have to take some noise," he said. But the FAA plan, he added, stretches fairness. "There are places in town where you can touch the tires." At least 12 lawsuits have been filed so far in an attempt to stop the plan. Congress ordered the Government Accountability Office to examine the FAA's method for choosing the new routes. Top lawmakers from several states have demanded changes. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., threatened to block Senate confirmation of acting FAA administrator Robert Sturgell if the agency doesn't halt implementation. So far, the complaints haven't stopped the FAA. Last month, the agency began phasing in new traffic patterns at the Newark and Philadelphia airports that allow departing planes to fan out in several directions as they climb, rather than stick to a single path. In theory, the change will allow more takeoffs per hour, but outside Philadelphia it will also mean more planes over a cluster of suburbs in Delaware County, just west of the airport. Since the first of the changes went into effect in Philadelphia on Dec. 19, the airport said it has been getting three complaints a day about noise, compared with about one every two days in the previous three months. FAA officials say the airspace redesign will actually lead to a reduction in noise for a majority of people, largely because the changes will allow planes to fly at higher altitudes. But sound-modeling data released by the agency reveals that the gains and losses will not be spread evenly. Loud neighborhoods will, on average, be getting louder, while the biggest improvements will be in places that aren't that noisy to begin with. According to the FAA, an additional 30,600 people will find themselves living in neighborhoods where the average daily aircraft noise level is 60 to 65 decibels — considered the high edge of tolerable for a residential area. Noise at that level is far from earsplitting; experts say it is less than residents might experience if they lived next to a busy road. But it is loud enough that people have to raise their voices as a plane passes overhead. The number of people living in areas where the average decibel level is between 55 and 60 will rise by 79,813. The big losers will be a few communities near Newark and Philadelphia that already hear a good deal of airplane traffic because of their proximity to the airports. There will also be a slight to moderate increase in noise in parts of Morris and Sussex counties in northern New Jersey. The big winners are people who live a little farther away, and now hear a medium amount of noise. By 2011, the FAA estimates that there will be nearly 728,650 fewer people living in areas where the daily noise level is between 45 and 55 decibels — louder than a refrigerator hum, but quieter than two people talking in a room. Many of those people are in a corridor running southwest from New Brunswick, N.J. There will also be noise benefits in pockets of densely populated Essex County, N.J., which includes Newark, and parts of northeastern Pennsylvania. The opposition is not just coming from areas likely to see big changes. Fourteen municipalities in western Connecticut have been trying to get the plan blocked, largely because it will shift an arrival path for New York's LaGuardia Airport eastward, creating what the FAA says will be slightly more noise for some towns in Connecticut. "It's a quality-of-life issue," said Rudy Marconi, a spokesman for the Alliance for Sensible Airspace Planning and a selectman in Ridgefield, Conn., 40 miles northeast of LaGuardia. "Will I get used to it? Probably. But should I have to get used to it?" Maybe I'm crazy, but the planes fly low over my barrio all the time were talking 3000 agl, sometimes lower. And, I love it. If I'm asleep, on my days off, and I hear the "blowdryer" of a low flying A320. I say "oh, there's the 10:25 Airways on arrival" as I turn over and go back to sleep! Poor people rejoice! __________________ Rear Admiral www.gayviator.com Maximillian Pegasus

January 10th, 2008, 21:21	#2
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,170	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! good, I hate poor people. __________________ Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

January 10th, 2008, 21:25	#4
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,667	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! Nice change of pace from flying over the rich people that built their houses in the landing pattern of an airport only to complain about the noise..... I've got no sympathy for someone that either builds or buys a house near a busy airport then complains about the noise. I don't care what tax bracket they're in. __________________ "I'm The Doctor, by the way. Run for your life!"

January 10th, 2008, 21:48	#8
MQAAord Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Looney Bin Posts: 9,157	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! I used to live directly under the departure/arrival path of 9L/27R at ORD. (In the "concrete jungle" east of the Des Plaines river.) They get no sympathy from me at all. The 727s & KC-135s that used to go out of there would literally shake the windows. Conversations would stop, and if you were on the phone, you had to tell the person you were talking to to hold on for a second til your hearing returned. __________________ PPL SEL 100-ish hours TT Former American Airlines F/A (12 months) Former Simmons/Eagle F/A (6 years) Former Eagle ground school instructor (1 year) Former Eagle IOE instructor (3 years)

January 10th, 2008, 22:07	#10
Snuggle Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 565	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! I live on final approach path at one of the big runways at JFK. Heavy jets fly over my house on a daily basis, even right now as I type this. It gets annoying when I'm trying to watch tv or talk on my phone. I think I've lost a bit of hearing from it too. The worst was the concord that used to come here, my room would literally shake when it flew overhead. They are only a couple of hundred feet up as they pass directly above my house. It does make for a good view though.

January 10th, 2008, 22:51	#12
OldTownPilot Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: BGR (Bangor, ME) Posts: 2,927 Blog Entries: 4	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! Elizabeth is a crap hole anyway. __________________ As a wise man said, sumb!tch flew in, sumb!tch'll fly out. Ski Hard. Party Harder.

January 10th, 2008, 22:59	#14
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,463	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! Max, man, you need to do something about your aviation geekdom. I like flying as much as the next guy, but damn it, when I'm at a hotel in LAX trying to sleep and I hear the planes taking off or landing.... __________________ http://www.photo.net/photos/tonywang for my photos

January 11th, 2008, 00:12	#20
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,811	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! I live under the approach paths for MDW, and the noise really doesn't bother me. I'm talking Southwest B737s flying over at 1500' AGL. I even have flown over my house in the Saab at 1500' AGL... Which was definitely a cool experience. The only planes that really bother me are the freight props... They fly over at about 800' AGL at full power around 1:00 AM and are totally unsynced. I worry that they're going to take tiles off the roof! After 9/11, I could hardly sleep during the day because there wasn't any jet noise. Seriously. Go figure. __________________ "Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps." Ernest K. Gann

January 11th, 2008, 00:14	#22
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,503	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! I just had flashbacks of standing on the PT field or the grinder, stopping to "make some noise" for the Reno Air MD-80's hitting the reversers next door! Ahhh - I wanna go back to boot camp. I can smell the Kiwi and Brasso now!!! __________________ ------- One person says "stop gloating - life sucks!" while another says "be happy - at least you have a job!" . . . people are just stupid.

January 11th, 2008, 00:16	#23
ASpilot2be Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: Paradise:) Posts: 4,509	Re: Planes to start flying low over poor people! We have family friends that live right in "The cut" in Juneau. After a jet flies over you can hear the wing tip vortices rustle the trees. Of course the sound doesnt bother them, they are both pilots. She is a Lear Captain for a medevac company, and he works for the FAA and used to fly for LAB. __________________