Don't need a degree eh?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by majorityof1

But I must ask who cares? The hiring minimums are crazy low, but it is part of today’s hiring market.

Yep. So what happens when the majors slow hiring and the regionals get backed up? We got back to where we were a couple of years ago. The feast is over, and the famine sets in. I remember applying to PSA when I had 800/150. They laughed my application out the door. Now, I'd be in the upper echelon of times with some of their new hire classes. Don't even get me started on Pinnacle's ultra-low time new hires. Back in the day you needed 1000/200 to even meet the minimums here, and that day was only about 2-3 years ago. In fact, Pinnacle was off my radar until I got hired at Skymates b/c I didn't think I'd be able to GET 200 ME.

The gravy train is gonna come to a screeching halt here soon. Possibly even THIS year sometime. Those that aren't prepared are gonna be faced with a long, hard job search ahead of them. For me, I'm glad I made the choices I did when I did. If my airline goes TU and hiring at the crazy low 600/100 times stops, I know I've got the time to do something else. Heck, I've even got the mins to fly freight or charter. The 600/100 guy that raced to the regionals might not have that option unless he's been at said regional for a while and flying his tail off.

[athomeinthesky]

Good post J-train

I concur with Skidz that the requirements for the pilot profession will diminish eventually. If you figure that average flight training now is 50k, average bachelor degree 25k, your talking 75k for a job where pay really isn't increasing and possibly decreasing in the future. Your going to get to a point with the price of gas increasing flight training costs so much and the rates for college increasing so fast that it will become completely impractical for somebody to enter the profession with the amount of money it would cost and especially if the requirements remained bachelor degree and possibly master degree.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Yep. So what happens when the majors slow hiring and the regionals get backed up?

Once you have your seniority number, it doesn't matter. Granted, most people don't want to be career regional pilots, but they have a good 3-4+ years of work to put in at the regional level before they will even qualify for a legacy.

So short term, I would say get a job now, if you qualify, and work on the degree as you go.

[esa17]

He with the most boxes checked gets the job......period. I don't understand the "just enough to get by" mentality.

Good post.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by esa17

He with the most boxes checked gets the job......period. I don't understand the "just enough to get by" mentality.

Good post.

Hammer, meet head of nail. Let us call it what it is, having a degree is nothing more than a "weeding out" factor, those that have and those that don't. The current market at the Legacies and such allow them to to be pick about this. Going to college does not make you smarter or more "smarter" it simply checks the box. If your goal is to fly a big shiny jet for some legacy you have to play the game.

[jtrain609]

I honestly didn't know there was a way in life to get smarter or dumber (unless you get hit on the head really really really hard by something or like OD on acid), there's only the ability to fill your head with knowledge. How fast you can learn it and what you do with it determines how smart you are.

[KC Jake]

Originally Posted by troopernflight

Not only is a 4-year degree probably going to be a requirement for legacy hires in the future, it has it's other advantages as well. 4 years of getting up early, making sure you're on time to class, studying for that big exam the night before, writing that 15 page term paper, giving up that trip to the beach because you need to work a little harder in a certain class, etc.etc.etc. This has the tendacy to make you grow up real quick. Heaven knows, being a pilot is an awesome responsibility. Going through college not only makes you much more competative in the field, it will be something that will benefit you throughout your aviation career. If all you know how to do is fly, and you haven't gone through the college experience, you are at a serious disadvantage... bottom line.

You forgot figuring out how many beers you can drink and still be functional the next morning.

[moxiepilot]

Let me just add though, that not everyone has the same goals in aviation and that is where this falls short of addressing. I'm not disagreeing, just adding another facet to the thread.

Someone may do very well in this career without a college diploma or CFIing and make good money doing it. That may not be in the regionals or majors, but that is such a small facet of aviation with all the other opportunities out there too.

So, take the info with a grain of salt and do with it whatcha will

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Once you have your seniority number, it doesn't matter. Granted, most people don't want to be career regional pilots, but they have a good 3-4+ years of work to put in at the regional level before they will even qualify for a legacy.

So short term, I would say get a job now, if you qualify, and work on the degree as you go.

That's ok, but as you said, once you have the seniority number, who cares? Many people had that exact attitude in the late 1990s. They had made it to a major and said "what the hell, I don't need to keep polishing my resume because I'm here". Then the bottom fell out and the were on the street and even with heavy jet time (AND a seniority number) they were having trouble getting hired into the right seat of an turboprop or RJ.

I know several guys here (at a regional) who got hired with no degree and said they'd finish it once they got settled in. Well, several years later and they haven't taken a class yet.

Not saying everybody is like that, but human nature tends to lean in that direction.

[MFT1Air]

Good post.

[germb747]

You're right--in general. This is a competitive industry where the "bare minimum" isn't going to get you very far. Without trying to sound too much like a cliche, the only constant in this market place is change. For kids coming into the industry right now, timing is definitely on their side--not something I'd hold against them. When I graduated from college in December 2002 and started looking for a full-time flight instructing job in early 2003, here's the exact quote from the Expressjet website during that time period (from that neat website archive.org):

Thank you for your interest in joining the ExpressJet team. We are not accepting resumes for the pilot position. We encourage you to check back often to apply when this position is available.
Once again, thank you for your interest in ExpressJet Airlines.

No 1000/200, No 2500/1000 mins, Nothing. No resumes accepted, period. With a CFI, CFII, and MEI, not even the flight schools were hiring. I found my own students and instructed in the university's flying club airplane and, as a volunteer, in the Civil Air Patrol before I was picked up for an Air Force pilot slot. I'm not whining that the barriers to entry aren't now what they were then--the timing just didn't work out for me when I was ready to find a job in the civilian world but was extremely lucky to get the military opportunity when I did. I have zero regrets, but if I were graduating today with a fresh 600 hours on my ticket like I did 5 years ago, I might have played the game differently based on what the job market will bear. Of course, as you said, there are cycles and there will be another downturn in the hiring. All I can say is that if you're lucky enough to have been able to meet the qualifications of a good regional airline when you did, then congratulations to you--in addition to having a good work ethic, you were lucky. I'm 28 and both flying in the reserves and Part 121 cargo, but you have at least three more years before you have to retire than I do, since you're only 25 and still very young with you're whole life ahead of you, and you appear to be in a good position right now to go as far as your dreams take you. With that said, of course I'll agree with you that you're still relatively inexperienced (as am I) and you have alot of competition out there--how "grey haired" did you expect to be at 25. While you appear to be doing things right, I still detect some bitterness and high ego in your post (not that those things are hard to find in aviation ). Why take that attitude? It will only lead to continued frustration and eventually you'll be burned out doing this job. By stating you "need not apply" if you have to ask certain questions, encourages the younger crowd not to explore their options. Of course they should be asking all the questions that come to their mind--they don't know the industry as well as you do and it's natural to be curious about what it will really take to get the job they're looking for. Had I never asked anyone what the market conditions really are, I'd perhaps still be working on my Doctor's degree with 5000 hours of dual given in piston props and the Nobel Peace Prize just because I want a job flying shiny jets! The bottom line is that those qualifications aren't necessary and it's important to understand not what the market was 2-5 years ago, but what the market is right now. What the market will be two years from now is anyone's guess, so I wouldn't wrap myself around the axle too much about that.

For those considering a career in this field, timing and networking are everything for getting a job, seniority is everything for keeping a job. In some years, you need CFI credentials to get an interview, right now you do not. There was a time you needed to come from the military for that shiny jet job, right now you do not. To answer the topic at hand, get your college degree. Education is an invaluable experience that will make you the "whole person" the airlines are looking for (not to mention the opportunity to network). But if the job opportunity is staring you in the face and you're qualified for a good regional like ExpressJet, then go for it and work on your degree as time permits (but ultimately get that degree!). And please, don't waste any portion of your life at a bottom feeder carrier like Mesa who hires wet commercial tickets. If you're right out of high school and just starting flying, focus on the degree first because you're not likely to get hired until you're close to 21 anyway. But in four years when you graduate, don't be surprised if you see the "no resumes are being accepted" notice just like I did--world events make that impossible to predict. If that happens to you, work on making yourself better and more marketable because there will be another hiring boom and you'll want to be ready for it.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

...great, it's get a degree month at JC! Already 3 degree threads in gen forums!

I was really beginning to tire of all the cyclical proto scabs, jetU/Gulfstream sucks, and do I need a CRJ course threads!



Oh, yea, get a degree!

No, really! Get a degree!

[phoenix 23684]

These are my two cents:

Anything that you can get to set you appart from the crowd is a worth investment. Everyone needs to look at what they want and figure how to get there and be selected from the crowd. College is always a good thing because it gives you a fall back. You never know what the future holds.
I'm 33 and have just started on this path, I have a B.S. in Aerospace Eng from Riddle, MBA, Full FCC license, all instructor tickets, Military Service, Top Secret Clearance, and a few other certifications and I hope to keep adding to the pile not only because it will give me an upperhand in the resume sorting pile, but you grow as a person.
And so trully for those who still don't believe this, but who you know has more weight than all above. Network!!, don't burn your bridges. I have not yet been able to attend a JC conf. but I plan on it, even though I have just started flying and will be a couple of years before I can hope to go to the Majors.

[toddnorrish]

Regardless of the validity of your post Jtrain, you have got to be one of the most self absorbed people in this forum. How can your hot girlfriend stand your arrogance? Young man, I thought I had seen it all.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by toddnorrish

Regardless of the validity of your post Jtrain, you have got to be one of the most self absorbed people in this forum. How can your hot girlfriend stand your arrogance? Young man, I thought I had seen it all.

Eh, I think that you have Jtrain confused with Chris_Ford!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by toddnorrish

Regardless of the validity of your post Jtrain, you have got to be one of the most self absorbed people in this forum. How can your hot girlfriend stand your arrogance? Young man, I thought I had seen it all.

Don't know about his hot girlfriend, but I know his hot FIANCEE is pretty tolerant of him.

Having lived with him myself for an extended period of time, he's not really as self-absorbed as you think he is.....

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Don't know about his hot girlfriend, but I know his hot FIANCEE is pretty tolerant of him.

Having lived with him myself for an extended period of time, he's not really as self-absorbed as you think he is.....

...or as self-absorbed as he'd like to mislead you to think he is!

Sorry to put your secret out on front street John!

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by toddnorrish

Regardless of the validity of your post Jtrain, you have got to be one of the most self absorbed people in this forum. How can your hot girlfriend stand your arrogance? Young man, I thought I had seen it all.

Wow. . .

Nope, you haven't seen it all. You have a lot to see.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Eh, I think that you have Jtrain confused with Chris_Ford!

Naw, he had it right the first time.

[nbv4]

What bothers most people when it comes to college degrees is the fact that ultimately it adds very little to your piloting skill set, but with a huge cost.

I have a four year degree, and honestly I can't really see it being anywhere as valuable per dollar as my flight training was. I think it's very likely for a high time pilot to be a very capable airline captain without a college degree. I can also see a high time pilot who has a 4 year degree who can't do the job for crap.

A person trying to pursue a career in law is going to have zero chances trying to get hired at a law firm without a law degree. This is obvious. A person is not going to just walk in to an airline to get a job without nothing but a student certificate. What does a college degree prove about a pilot? "It proves you are disciplined to complete something like a degree program". Wouldn't passing systems training for a regional prove the same thing? Doesn't flying the line at a cargo outfit prove discipline?

It's a lot like that radio operator's permit that all pilots planning on going to Canada need to get. You fill out a form and mail it in along with a check and it's yours. That piece of paper doesn't make you a better employee, it doesn't make you a better pilot, it doesn't even make you a better person. Its just a $50 piece of paper that allows you to check a box on a job application. If you could get out of paying for a radio operators permit, would you try to get out of it? I see colege degrees the same way. If I were older with a lot of hours, and not having a college degree was holding me back, I don't think I'd bother getting it. Maybe if I really really really wanted a job that required a degree, or if there was something I really wanted to study, I wouldn't bother wasting the thousands of dollars just to check a box. There are plenty of employers out there who can look past college degrees and realize you can be a good pilot without 4 years of college.

And I don't really blame Airlines for requiring them either. I imagine it would be kind of a PR nightmare if passengers found out there are airlines that hire people to captain their jets who don't have a degree.

[t-cart]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

Let me just add though, that not everyone has the same goals in aviation and that is where this falls short of addressing. I'm not disagreeing, just adding another facet to the thread.

Someone may do very well in this career without a college diploma or CFIing and make good money doing it. That may not be in the regionals or majors, but that is such a small facet of aviation with all the other opportunities out there too.

So, take the info with a grain of salt and do with it whatcha will

Very good point.I agree. The way i see it, if you plan on going to a major,you need to get the degree. If not aiming for the majors,there are a lot of other flying positions out there that pay a lot more than instructing or flying for the regionals,with a lot better QOL. I can only speak for one of them,but it worked very good for me. As for the poster that talked about getting up and going to class,and studying for the big test,and all that other stuff that you experience in college,give me a break. And that last little bit of your post is B.S. In case you couldnt tell,I didnt go to college.Even though the name is Jet careers,There are some people on here that will never sit in front of a jet. T.C.

[surreal1221]

I yi yi

It's not difficult people.

The legacies and majors will always require a degree. . .if your goal is to end up there, set yourself up for success and have a damn 4 year degree. It doesn't have to be this difficult.

If you plan on staying at a regional, then whatever - your issue. Who gives a damn.

If you plan on moving on to the corporate side, and have connections, and you think you can be successful without a 4 year degree - then fine, WHATEVER.

But christ. . .it's not rocket science, if you want to work for the better paying companies you need to have the elements that will set you up to be competitive.

The End. . .enough.

[nbv4]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

The End. . .enough.

Yes, but you see, some people like to discuss things.

[surreal1221]

And this subject has been discussed . . . hmm, I'd wager at least 50 times since I registered a year and a half ago.

Search function works great, and I'm sure you'll find a number of Degree threads in the hot topics section.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

And this subject has been discussed . . . hmm, I'd wager at least 50 times since I registered a year and a half ago.

Search function works great, and I'm sure you'll find a number of Degree threads in the hot topics section.

So you're saying that the subject is popular/controversial enough to generate that much interest!?! Wow, then let's ban it!

If you're tired of a topic feel free to just skip those threads.