Don't need a degree eh?

[jynxyjoe]

*yawn*

I'll see u all at the BK shoving fries in the frier when management turns 121 aviation into a part time job. Hey maybe i'll get senority over all of you.

[DE727UPS]

I think Jtrain is right on with his perspective. Those that take his tact in a personal manner are missing the point and seem to want to flame his opinion.

I've seen when it took 1500 total and 300 multi to buy a regional job. There is no doubt those days, while not appreciated by the quick up and comer, turned out a more well rounded, experienced, airline pilot. Can a 250 hour guy do the job? Well, I suppose, but not to a standard that I think is realistic. Or to a standard that I think is even slightly appropriate...

I long for the day when the 300 hour guy gets "supply and demanded" out. It will be better days when a higher standard is enforced and becomes the norm. And I say this all from a position of not having a dog in the fight, really, other than I just think it's right.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I long for the day when the 300 hour guy gets "supply and demanded" out. It will be better days when a higher standard is enforced and becomes the norm. And I say this all from a position of not having a dog in the fight, really, other than I just think it's right.

Thank God!

I was speaking with my wife over dinner concerning just this.

The day will come when the minimums are back up at 1000/200 (at a minimum. . .higher will also eventually occur). It's a cycle, always has been, always will be.

So I explained to my wife, that these RJ transition course kiddies - the ones that do the course RIGHT before the minimums shoot up are going to SOL unless they actually have the time to back up their resume (CFI/II/MEI). But, I don't think enough of them realize the damage they are doing to the profession to really give a damn about themselves - much less the profession.

[Zero1Niner]

Jtrain...whatever. I just read your post, and I see from 7 pages of replies that it has got some traction, but I couldn't wait to read through the other responses before commenting. Its not so much what you said, but how you said it that comes off so ridiculous. I realize that your vast years of experience in the industry (how old did you say you were??? 25?) has provided you with this great wisdom, but seriously....give me a freaking break. That was in NO way what I would call a 'reality' check. Sounded more like you stroking yourself because of the decisions YOU have made.

Although there are some points buried within your rambling that I agree with, there is certainly no hard and fast formula that applies to everyone. I agree that the more you have in your bag of tricks (degree, CFI, high time, etc) the better off you you are (in any industry). But it certainly doesn't mean that if you don't have some or any of those thing, that it basically knocks you out of the running. That's freaking insane!

This industry is changing and evolving. There are new opportunities that have never existed before. Sure...if you have the opportunity, go to school and get your degree. Hard to argue with that. But should everyone do the Degree>CFI>Freight>Regional>to get to the Legacy carrier route?...hardly. Especially in a time when regionals are hiring with 400hrs? Sure. I see your point.

Flexibility, often times, is ultimately the best asset to posses. Times are changing. Be aware and prepared to take an opportunity when it presents itself.

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Heya,


I'm up kinda late tonight (for me), have a few minutes on my hands and thought I'd throw something up here about something that has been bugging me. This topic comes up pretty often so I figured, why not throw down my opinion on the subject, as I seem to give my opinion on just about everything else in the world. It didn't really fit within the degree thread, so this one is getting started.

For you cats out there that are getting into this gig and want to meet the minimum standards for this job, I've got some really bad news for you; you're most likely in a lot of trouble. Do you guys actually think that you can get into this industry, meet the minimum qualifications and have choice companies knocking on your door?

We've got kids out there who come on and ask, "Do I REALLY need a degree?" or, "I don't wanna flight instruct! Do I have to?" As far as I'm concerned, if you need to ask the question, you need not apply.

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.

If you think that it's a good idea to skip flight instructing, skip college, skip flying freight, skip the regionals, skip charter, skip corporate or skip any number of things that will make you a better, more well rounded pilot in addition to a better, more well rounded person then you might as well just get your application to Mesa in order because that could well be the final stop for you.

I don't mean to be TOO negative, but there needs to be a bit of a reality check in this department. There has been so much hiring going on in the last few years at the regionals that I think everybody has gotten the idea that all you EVER needed to get a job at an airline was 600/100. Let me tell you what kids.

Two years ago when I was looking flight instructor jobs, I was told at something like 10 different interviews from the get go that if I didn't go to Riddle or UND, they probably weren't interested. 6 months later people couldn't find enough instructors. A year and a half ago when I was looking for work at a regional you couldn't buy an interview with under 1000/200. Now? 250/0 and you're flying Dash-8's or EMB-145's. Upgrades were running ULTRA fast at some companies. A year at Skywest, 18 months at Express, a year at CHQ.

This is not the norm, and things WILL start to slide back in the other direction. It always has and it always will.

Things are slowing down. Hiring is slowing down, the economy is slowing down and the qualifications to get these jobs WILL go up. Do you really think it's a prudent idea to forgo college, forgo having a flight instructor certificate and forgo any other chance you may have of building some PIC time doing banner tow, throwing meat missiles or any other ways to build time BEFORE you get to an airline cockpit? What are you going to have when the furlough comes, and believe me if you miss a furlough in this industry count yourself among the lucky ones. That 500 hours of SIC ERJ time like the other 700 guys you just ended up on the street with isn't going to get you much.

Me? I'm 25, flight instructed, spent time in a large air carrier's training department, passed three part 135 checkouts, passed a 121 checkout, never failed a check ride, never had a student fail a check ride (part 91 or 135), have a college degree, a cute fiance and I've got a lot of friends that would walk in a resume for me. And to be completely honest with you, I still VERY much view myself as an extremely low time pilot and that I'm not that well qualified, but I'd put my resume up to a cat that walked outta some academy with no degree and no real world experience.

So what are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?

You're going to do everything you can to become a well rounded pilot, a better connected pilot, a well rounded individual and if you're smart you'll try like heck to best me in every way that you possibly can because when the furlough hits, I'm not worried in any way about being able to find another flying job. And if I can't? Tough luck, I go to law school and make more money than I would as a pilot anyway. I can do that because, guess what kids, I went to college and got a pre-law degree.

What makes YOU more marketable? Folks have GOT to start looking at this stuff and saying, "How can I make myself a better, more marketable pilot" instead of saying, "Oh gee whiz I've gotta teach! Oh no! That's horrible! I just wanna fly a jet! I don't want to do anything more than the minimum amount of work!"

And since I didn't mention it, GO TO NETWORK JETCAREERS! Anybody that doesn't make it is simply making it harder for themselves to get a job. I've gotten every job I've had in the aviation industry because of people I met at NJC, and I imagine that trend will continue.

Make yourself more marketable, make yourself stand out, go ABOVE AND BEYOND EVERYBODY ELSE, don't go for the minimum standard, network and make friends and if I haven't said it yet GO TO COLLEGE and be ready and willing to WALK AWAY from this career if it doesn't give YOU what you want out of it.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner

Jtrain...whatever. I just read your post, and I see from 7 pages of replies that it has got some traction, but I couldn't wait to read through the other responses before commenting. Its not so much what you said, but how you said it that comes off so ridiculous. I realize that your vast years of experience in the industry (how old did you say you were??? 25?) has provided you with this great wisdom, but seriously....give me a freaking break. That was in NO way what I would call a 'reality' check. Sounded more like you stroking yourself because of the decisions YOU have made.

Although there are some points buried within your rambling that I agree with, there is certainly no hard and fast formula that applies to everyone. I agree that the more you have in your bag of tricks (degree, CFI, high time, etc) the better off you you are (in any industry). But it certainly doesn't mean that if you don't have some or any of those thing, that it basically knocks you out of the running. That's freaking insane!

This industry is changing and evolving. There are new opportunities that have never existed before. Sure...if you have the opportunity, go to school and get your degree. Hard to argue with that. But should everyone do the Degree>CFI>Freight>Regional>to get to the Legacy carrier route?...hardly. Especially in a time when regionals are hiring with 400hrs? Sure. I see your point.

Flexibility, often times, is ultimately the best asset to posses. Times are changing. Be aware and prepared to take an opportunity when it presents itself.

Suit yourself bossman, but the regionals WILL NOT continue to hire at 400 hours and if you think they will you haven't been paying attention to the economy and what happens to our jobs when it tanks. That was part of what I was trying to debunk.

When I got hired at my current company everybody in class was jumping up and down screaming, "18 month upgrades! 18 month upgrades!" I told them that it probably wasn't going to happen like that and I got called a buzz kill.

They just canceled our last set of upgrade classes.

[yzf]

My 2 cents..

What works out great for someone may not work so good for someone else. Getting hired at your dream job will depend on timing, hiring, connections, the economy, and lots of other stuff. With everything that's happened in the last 10 years who knows what company will be the place to be in another 10 years?

As for me, delaying the college let me spend 2+ years instructing, 2 years of freight (FLX for all the graduates here!), and some time as a regional captain before getting hired at the airline I'll probably retire a few months ago at age 25 with 0 days of college. Is this the best route? Probably not, I'm still going to get a degree but it's worked out and I've had lots of fun on the way.

[tonyw]

Look, I've been drinking after a hockey game and I'm gonna be one hunt over son of a bitch tomorrow moring when I have to go to work.

But even in my state, I'm telling you this. Get hte muddafracking degree. Sbhut, do it, and be done with it.

It's worth 60 percent more in comp. It's worth over a million over a career.

Now, if you're rich enough to blw off a million, give me some.

Otherwise, shut up, and get ht degree.

[averyrm]

I'm not on a hiring board, but I know the guys pretty well. Here, at least, having the 4 year degree puts you higher on the list.

There ya go.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

The purpose was not to pat myself on the back, Ian, it was to give these kids a point of reference. How would you like to go into a test not knowing what you're up against?

Teacher: We're giving you a test today

Student: Alright! Over what?

Teacher: I can't tell you that, explaining the material to you might make you feel like you've done less preparation than me, so I'm just going to give you the test.

Student: But how are we supposed to know what the answers are if we have no frame of reference.

Teacher: Well I gave the answers to some of your class mates

Student: But, that's BS! They might know more than me because I didn't get the opportunity to have all the cards on the table!

Teacher: Deal with it, and good luck!

Ian to be completely honest my resume isn't that impressive, and if people think that it's really all that great then they need some SERIOUS introspection into their own career. When I'm up against guys like you, Seggy, FlyChicaga, Doug, Fly4Pay and all these other cats that have WAY more experience than I do, I shudder to think of how an interview would go down with me, Segs and Matt all in an interview at once. Simply put I wouldn't be invited to said interview, and if I was I'd be laughed out the door. How am I supposed to compete with a guy that has time in the military flying helicopters for thousands of hours and has some as an aircraft commander? I can't, simply put And THAT sir drives ME to better myself because as soon as I realize I'm behind the power curve, it gives me pause to realize that if I don't get on the ball I'm going to be left out in the cold.

John,

I understood all that from the get go. Like I said before - the college degree topic is a valuable one, no doubt. I also understand your intent was not to pat yourself on the back. It's just in your effort to get your message out in your original posts - something got lost along the way. You've clarified yourself (in numerous posts), and as long as someone reads ALL of this thread, they should understand now.

And for those who say this thread has predictably turned into a "my way is better than yours" thread, try and read all the posts without so much skimming. This was neither the point of the OP, nor do most posters tend to share that opinion.

As a non 121 guy just gleaning information from the JC masses over the last two years, this is a pretty simple subject. If I were to sum up all of the posts here into the most critical, need to know information about this subject, it would look like this:

- To get higher in the 121 world, most likely you'll need a degree. No matter the rare instances where one might be hired without it, chances are, you'll need it.

- If you have a degree, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those without.

- If you don't have one, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those with.

- If you don't have one, you can still be pretty successful in the aviation business - but you have a lesser chance of working for a major airline.

- If you do have one, it doesn't guarantee you will get hired with a major airline.

- Flight experience is very important. But if an airline wants a degree, they want a degree.

Pretty simple?

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Ian J

John,

I understood all that from the get go. Like I said before - the college degree topic is a valuable one, no doubt. I also understand your intent was not to pat yourself on the back. It's just in your effort to get your message out in your original posts - something got lost along the way. You've clarified yourself (in numerous posts), and as long as someone reads ALL of this thread, they should understand now.

And for those who say this thread has predictably turned into a "my way is better than yours" thread, try and read all the posts without so much skimming. This was neither the point of the OP, nor do most posters tend to share that opinion.

As a non 121 guy just gleaning information from the JC masses over the last two years, this is a pretty simple subject. If I were to sum up all of the posts here into the most critical, need to know information about this subject, it would look like this:

- To get higher in the 121 world, most likely you'll need a degree. No matter the rare instances where one might be hired without it, chances are, you'll need it.

- If you have a degree, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those without.

- If you don't have one, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those with.

- If you don't have one, you can still be pretty successful in the aviation business - but you have a lesser chance of working for a major airline.

- If you do have one, it doesn't guarantee you will get hired with a major airline.

- Flight experience is very important. But if an airline wants a degree, they want a degree.

Pretty simple?

Thanks for the Cliffsnotes Ian!

[mwflyer]

Originally Posted by Ian J

John,

I understood all that from the get go. Like I said before - the college degree topic is a valuable one, no doubt. I also understand your intent was not to pat yourself on the back. It's just in your effort to get your message out in your original posts - something got lost along the way. You've clarified yourself (in numerous posts), and as long as someone reads ALL of this thread, they should understand now.

And for those who say this thread has predictably turned into a "my way is better than yours" thread, try and read all the posts without so much skimming. This was neither the point of the OP, nor do most posters tend to share that opinion.

As a non 121 guy just gleaning information from the JC masses over the last two years, this is a pretty simple subject. If I were to sum up all of the posts here into the most critical, need to know information about this subject, it would look like this:

- To get higher in the 121 world, most likely you'll need a degree. No matter the rare instances where one might be hired without it, chances are, you'll need it.

- If you have a degree, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those without.

- If you don't have one, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those with.

- If you don't have one, you can still be pretty successful in the aviation business - but you have a lesser chance of working for a major airline.

- If you do have one, it doesn't guarantee you will get hired with a major airline.

- Flight experience is very important. But if an airline wants a degree, they want a degree.

Pretty simple?

the whole thread summed up in one post. excellent job!

[MQAAord]

I think Ian's got a new career!

Instead of CliffNotes, it'll now be IanNotes!

(Excellent summarization, btw )

[moxiepilot]

was Cliff's notes named for Cliff Claven???

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by averyrm

I'm not on a hiring board, but I know the guys pretty well. Here, at least, having the 4 year degree puts you higher on the list.

There ya go.

Really... everwhere you go, it gives you more competitiveness...the more competitive you can be, the higher you can get.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Kristie

Really... everwhere you go, it gives you more competitiveness...the more competitive you can be, the higher you can get.

It's like being selected in the draft for a pro sport. Sure, you can do it if you're "too slow." Or "too short." Or a bazillion other things.

But if you're that can't miss prospect, things are a lot easier for you.

Why people argue against adding something that makes them more of a can't miss prospect, I'll never know.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Heya,

We've got kids out there who come on and ask, "Do I REALLY need a degree?" or, "I don't wanna flight instruct! Do I have to?" As far as I'm concerned, if you need to ask the question, you need not apply.

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

...

If you think that it's a good idea to skip flight instructing, skip college, skip flying freight, skip the regionals, skip charter, skip corporate or skip any number of things that will make you a better, more well rounded pilot in addition to a better, more well rounded person then you might as well just get your application to Mesa in order because that could well be the final stop for you.

I agree with some of that, but not with others. I didn't get my CFI, I'm going to finish it, but I don't particularly need it in my career right now. Getting that rating should be about self fulfillment not about a job. Do you really want a CFI to whom you're just a number inj the logbook? As for a degree, I'm buying mine at UVSC. And as for skipping...welllllllll....

If you can get up to that next notch in the career ladder and do it quickly, by all means do it. Get that precious seniority number, and get your time in the company. Why? because the less you work, and the more you get paid the happier you're going to be. In other words, its all about QOL. Get the best deal you can for yourself, if that includes going to school to get a good job right off the bat then do it, but otherwise do what you want. You came off a little preachy on that one. Look, I'm 19 years old with a C-Amel/Asel IR. I'm FO in a Beech 1900C, and I'm making over 30k per year right out of the gate. By the time I'm your illustrious 25 years old I'll have well over 6 thousand hours if I stay where I'm at, and a type or two. And I'll be able to go pretty much wherever I want. I'll have my degree by then, but the point remains, it doesn't matter how you get there, just that you get there. Do you need to CFI? No, I didn't, I flew boxes in the bush. Do you need to fly freight? No, I am, but I didn't have to, I wanted this job. Do you need to fly SIC in a CRJ? No, but if the money is better, the progression is good, and the bene's are there, then do it! You don't have to prove yourself to Jtrain

[Doug Taylor]

That's great, but by all means, it carries for more gravitas when you tell the story after accomplishing your goals!

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

That's great, but by all means, it carries for more gravitas when you tell the story after accomplishing your goals!

But, my Mom always told me I'm awesome and I'll be awesome at whatever I want to be awesome at because I'm the most awesome of awesome people!!!!!!111oneoneoneone My Mom's never wrong and makes really good cookies so she's right.

Poopy face.

[Doug Taylor]

John, you're such the devil's spawn of scoreless soccer.

[jtrain609]

I know it dude, but I actually just thought I'd take this opportunity to let you know that I'm the most awesome person at scoreless soccer like ever.

I hope everybody that contributed to this thread shows to NJC, BTW. If they don't they've wasted a lot of their time talking big but without doing anything to help further themselves with networking contacts this website has to offer.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I know it dude, but I actually just thought I'd take this opportunity to let you know that I'm the most awesome person at scoreless soccer like ever.

I hope everybody that contributed to this thread shows to NJC, BTW. If they don't they've wasted a lot of their time talking big but without doing anything to help further themselves with networking contacts this website has to offer.

You know I'll be there. Although I wasn't a poopyhead so you probably won't wanna talk to me.

[ready2fly]

K. Just read most of this thread and here are my $0.02:

Jtrain is spot on. Regardless how he said it - he's correct.

Some examples:

In the past week, I've flown with the following captains:
- Former F4, F5, F16 driver with a degree in engineering from Clemson
- Former F15, F111 driver with a degree from the Air Force Academy

These two, in particular, awaiting class dates at a legacy. Their counterparts at my regional with no degree and more time - will remain at the regional. Why? No degree.

On the flip side of that is the extremely low time hiring that's going on.

I just finished recurrent ground and this was a very large topic of conversation. The check airman who did the class commented that he was flying with a new-hire two weeks ago. The guy had something like 350 TT. They shot an approach into LIT down to mins and the FO zoned. Got so far behind the checklist to the point where he just stopped making any callouts whatsoever.

So, here is the captain, with 70 pax in the back - basically flying single pilot IFR down to minimums.

After landing, the FO said "That was COOL! That was my first approach in the real stuff!"

Captain: In this plane?

FO: Ever!

Do you think the passengers deserve that? Is that what you pay for as a pax when YOU fly?

Right now, my regional has a 270 TT pilot in training. That, my friends, is downright scary!

The Check Airman also said he had to Un-Sat a captain (eventually got it changed to an Incomplete) and his FO on a checkride ....because the 400TT new-hire couldn't read an emergency checklist, let alone a normal one...spent almost three minutes looking for a bleed air switch on the overhead......

...and when the check airman went before the board the next day to explain - they overturned the un-sat on the FO too and let the kid slide.

Why? Because they need warm bodies in the right seat.

Unbelieveable!!

I was hired in 2006 with 1300TT/115ME/5turbine and had something like 10 hours of actual and had shot numerous approaches down to minimums.........and still felt like (and was) a "low time pilot."

I'm two years into my airline career now and have learned enough to know that I still don't know squat.

It's the sense of entitlement that we're seeing coming out of flight training that is also scary. Kids from Riddle, NDU, Purdue, FSI, Delta Connection Academy....etc. are coming in with barely their commercial and acting as if it's their RIGHT to be in the left seat TOMORROW!

As for getting to a legacy any time soon if you're not sitting in the left seat of a regional right now - forget about it.

I meet the mins for DAL, but won't be receiving an invite to interview until I get some PIC - and as far as I've heard, most regionals are either not upgrading or their upgrades are sitting at anywhere between 3-8 years.

In short - to echo Jtrain's sentiment: There are no shortcuts in this industry!

To sum it all up and hopefully put it in perspective - my buddy who I went through new-hire training with, left my regional after a year to fly for a fractional where he upgraded to captain in 4 months.

His ultimate goal is to get back to the airlines.

He currently has just over 3000 TT/1500ME/300TPIC ........ and cannot get a reply from a legacy. Why?

Read carefully.

He has no college degree. Period.

He went to a job fair where United, CAL & NW were present. Every single one of them said he'd need a college degree to be considered.

You may not like how Jtrain said it, but his frustration is warranted and if you can't take it when somebody leaves off the candy coat - perhaps this whole airline thing isn't for you.

Just my $0.02. Spend it wisely.

R2F

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Ian J

You know I'll be there. Although I wasn't a poopyhead so you probably won't wanna talk to me.

Actually I don't want to have another word with you until you sell out and come fly an RJ. Chieftain's are for wussies.