Don't need a degree eh?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

The above state is true, but getting to the top doesn't always require working harder.

If the rungs on the ladder are a little closer together, it's easier to climb higher, faster. Personally I think using the 'minimum requirements' to reach that next rung doesn't mean you'll get the minimum return on that investment.

It's all about the cost of that opportunity. If I knew I could get hired at a major without a degree, a degree would be way further down my priority list.

It's like that movie 'Accepted' where Lewis Black is ranting about the BS they throw out at colleges these days. You can talk about being 'well-rounded' and a more developed individual all you want, but the real truth behind colleges these days is that they're selling tickets to a better job pool.

I think that's the difference between me and most folks. My degree prepared me to go to law school or graduate school, not pilot school. Without it I'd never get into any law or graduate program. It was social too, but I looked at college from a very academic perspective. College taught me how to think, how to study, how to argue, how to better myself and how to do it without a ton of help from anybody else. My program was kind of sink or swim.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I think that's the difference between me and most folks. My degree prepared me to go to law school or graduate school, not pilot school. Without it I'd never get into any law or graduate program. It was social too, but I looked at college from a very academic perspective. College taught me how to think, how to study, how to argue, how to better myself and how to do it without a ton of help from anybody else. My program was kind of sink or swim.

I don't wanna put words in your mouth, so I'll just ask.. College taught you how to think? Say what?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by WildCougar

I'm curious as to whether there are any people on JC now who are on any airline hiring boards.

Unequivocally yes. Absolutely. And I know who they are too!

Mostly lurk without saying a peep

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

I don't wanna put words in your mouth, so I'll just ask.. College taught you how to think? Say what?

I think he is talking about critical thinking. Critical thinking is more "skill" than ability. Most professors, the ones who are nutballs, encourage students to think outside the box, ie on a Geometry test where the question is "Name this side of a triangle" and I name it Bob, you get credit for critical thinking

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Learn where you're happiest learning so that way you'll get it done.

If I'm ever on a hiring board, I'm going to get my kicks from asking, "So, how was Utah? You, uhh, didn't actually go to school in Utah? But your, OOOOOOH! One of them!"

Get your kicks, huh? That's cool. I'm also assuming how one earned their degree isn't a significant factor, right? Seems to me one is smart to earn it online from a school in Utah than to live in the snow and ice and learn only how to try and stay warm.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Unequivocally yes. Absolutely. And I know who they are too!

Mostly lurk without saying a peep

Great. Now time on JC is a perpetual interview. Swell.

[Qgar]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Unequivocally yes. Absolutely. And I know who they are too!

Mostly lurk without saying a peep

Uh-oh I hope your members take note of that! Think there's some "recruiting" or "no way in hell" stuff going on behind the scenes?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Oh, you're a funny man, Mr Taylor.

So now that you've opened this worm can...

... how much does the NAME of the University count?

I mean, let's face it- some of them amount to $19.99 and two proofs of purchase for your "very own degree"....

I'm having a re-evaluation of my views on this. I still think it's largely a piece of paper, but I did sit across from the manager of pilot selection with a resume of an applicant that was below competitive minimums PIC-wise, but came from a prestigious non-aviation university and he was invited to an interview.

It was "...light on turbine PIC, we usually like to see at least XXXX... Oh a _______ graduate? Great GPA, did lots of extracurricular activities, wow, let me flag him for further evaluation".

Those aren't my words as I'm a "just check the box" type of guy, but in this situation his education helped greatly.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I think he is talking about critical thinking. Critical thinking is more "skill" than ability. Most professors, the ones who are nutballs, encourage students to think outside the box, ie on a Geometry test where the question is "Name this side of a triangle" and I name it Bob, you get credit for critical thinking

Okay, that's funny, true, but that's also providing credit for nonsensical behavior when the correct answer should be 'hypotenuse'.

If I'm shelling out top dollar for an education, I don't want some professor to show me how to think like a nonconventional maniac. I've mastered that all on my own. College is claiming credit for adding things to people's minds when they're just taking credit for life experience, which is accrued incidentally and not by their plan.

[Qgar]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Great. Now time on JC is a perpetual interview. Swell.

I doubt you have anything to worry about. It's not like you use your full name on here anyway!

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by WildCougar

Uh-oh I hope your members take note of that! Think there's some "recruiting" or "no way in hell" stuff going on behind the scenes?

You know, they'd never tell me. I don't ask! Don't want to know! I like a low drama existence.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'm having a re-evaluation of my views on this. I still think it's largely a piece of paper, but I did sit across from the manager of pilot selection with a resume of an applicant that was below competitive minimums PIC-wise, but came from a prestigious non-aviation university and he was invited to an interview.

It was "...light on turbine PIC, we usually like to see at least XXXX... Oh a _______ graduate? Great GPA, did lots of extracurricular activities, wow, let me flag him for further evaluation".

Those aren't my words as I'm a "just check the box" type of guy, but in this situation his education helped greatly.

Point taken. A board evaluates the 'whole individual' and it's the sum total of your application that counts, not every single category.

Thanks for the heads up. BTW, I'm almost sure I know who you're talking about. When we will learn the ID of this potential new Southernjetter?

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by WildCougar

I doubt you have anything to worry about. It's not like you use your full name on here anyway!

Eh. People know people, ya know?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by WildCougar

I doubt you have anything to worry about. It's not like you use your full name on here anyway!

I wouldn't worry about it. People that are prone to lurk on JC, compared to other sites, know that we like to have fun and blow off some steam from time to time.

Some sites are the "Skull and Bones" club, others are "The Fight Club", I like to keep it like a friendly neighborhood bar 'n grill like Cheers.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Thanks for the heads up. BTW, I'm almost sure I know who you're talking about. When we will learn the ID of this potential new Southernjetter?

Considering where most new hires are going, perhaps a camera phone photo taken someplace in Europe! You'll have to wait.

[MQAAord]

I'm sure the poor guy is nervous enough as it is, without the added pressure of everyone here knowing about it! Let him study, get through the interview, and he can tell us himself when he's ready

He knows we're all behind him 100%!

[Dugie8]

A lot of things in life are "fixed" as in constant. 1 + 1 is always going to be 2, at least on the cestial plane of existance. Being able to think, as cliche and over used as it is, outside of the box is what gets you through life. Realizing that the world is not black and white and that the right answer is usually not easily solved by finding X for X+1 = 2 is really what college is about, even if not by design.

I mean really think about it, most of us can go to school on a new airplane for what, maybe 3 weeks and know that airplane inside and out, is it really that far of a stretch to see how long and drawn out college really is, for no real reason? Take all of the fluff out of college and how long do you really think it would take a normal person to learn the paticulars for whatever their degree is in, a lot shorter than 4 or 5 years for sure. It does take a bit of time to shift the way you think and approach the world though.

Again, no one is really arguing the validity of the college degree requirement, that being said, the requirement is there if you want to be hired by a legacy carrier so either play the game or shut up. Going through life with a chip on your shoulder because your paticular choices in life don't/didn't line up with some Legacy's hiring practices is a foolish, IMO. All that being said (again) I think the degree requirement is nothing more than lazy HR's way of weeding out applicants and making the resume stack smaller.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by darrenf

You mean all the other companies that knew you, correct??

Not necessarily.

Delta - didn't have 20/20 vision.
American - had been rejected there previously due to low fixed wing time.
United - over-qualified (if you can believe that one!)
USAir - never responded
SWA - no 737 type rating
NWA - froze hiring 3 days prior to my interview
FedEx - not hiring
UPS - the next interview after I got hired where I am.

Nice try, though.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Considering where most new hires are going, perhaps a camera phone photo taken someplace in Europe! You'll have to wait.

No worries. I'm just curious if I'm right. I'm rootin' for 'em.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

I'm sure the poor guy is nervous enough as it is, without the added pressure of everyone here knowing about it! Let him study, get through the interview, and he can tell us himself when he's ready

He knows we're all behind him 100%!

Very true. 's exciting to see one of the JC bunch move up in the world, ya know?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

I don't wanna put words in your mouth, so I'll just ask.. College taught you how to think? Say what?

Dugie got it right, but I didn't take Geometry in college and if you named a side of your triangle Bob in a philosophy course you'd probably get laughed out of class by the professor.

Philosophy uses ######## topics to develop critical thinking skills. Like phenomenology; that's the concept that if you are not there to witness something, it doesn't exist. So if the tree falls in the woods and there is nobody still there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Of course not, the tree isn't even there because if somebody isn't there to witness it into existence, then it doesn't exist. Also, if I were talking to you, and turned around you wouldn't be there anymore. 'Cause I mean let's be honest, if I can't SEE you how do I know that you're there? Now with that in mind, prove it wrong without stating (in the voice of the jerky boys), "Hey there guy, are you retarded or something? The tree's there whether I can see it or not!" It's a lot harder than you might think and this broadens your critical thinking skills.

BS right? Yes and no (I think largely yes), but forcing yourself to wrap your head around these concepts (even when you think they're bogus, which I think many of them are bogus. It's why I spent most my time studying political philosophy I think) forces you to adapt to a new paradigm you didn't think existed before. This changes your critical thinking skills greatly because instead of saying, "We can't lose that bus, it's impossible, I just passed my type ride in this aircraft and THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING" you're forced to look at it and say, "Well, it shouldn't have happened, but it DID happen, so let's figure out a solution to the problem instead of just saying it isn't possible."

I'm not doing my area of study justice, but I'm also kind of preoccupied with trying to restring my guitar.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

YOU will put your military experience up against a college degree, but will an HR department? We're not discussing what YOU think is more valuable, we're talking about the people evaluating you think is more valuable..

The fact of the matter is, at least in the past, HR departments DID value military flight time over civilian flight time. Simply because there was no question about the standardization and quality of military training.

Who knows what kind of training you got at some license mills? And then you may have gotten all your hours flying freight at some loser outfit that taught you to cut corners just to get the job done every night.

Or you dragged tourists up and down the Grand Canyon for a year, flying VFR out of one airport 12 hours a day.

Military training and experience still give you an edge in HR departments, especially ones where actual pilots sit on interview boards.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Dugie got it right, but I didn't take Geometry in college and if you named a side of your triangle Bob in a philosophy course you'd probably get laughed out of class by the professor.

Philosophy uses ######## topics to develop critical thinking skills. Like phenomenology; that's the concept that if you are not there to witness something, it doesn't exist. So if the tree falls in the woods and there is nobody still there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Of course not, the tree isn't even there because if somebody isn't there to witness it into existence, then it doesn't exist. Also, if I were talking to you, and turned around you wouldn't be there anymore. 'Cause I mean let's be honest, if I can't SEE you how do I know that you're there? Now with that in mind, prove it wrong without stating (in the voice of the jerky boys), "Hey there guy, are you retarded or something? The tree's there whether I can see it or not!" It's a lot harder than you might think and this broadens your critical thinking skills.

BS right? Yes and no (I think largely yes), but forcing yourself to wrap your head around these concepts (even when you think they're bogus, which I think many of them are bogus. It's why I spent most my time studying political philosophy I think) forces you to adapt to a new paradigm you didn't think existed before. This changes your critical thinking skills greatly because instead of saying, "We can't lose that bus, it's impossible, I just passed my type ride in this aircraft and THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING" you're forced to look at it and say, "Well, it shouldn't have happened, but it DID happen, so let's figure out a solution to the problem instead of just saying it isn't possible."

I'm not doing my area of study justice, but I'm also kind of preoccupied with trying to restring my guitar.

Sooo.. it teaches you to be a realist rather than a egotist that relies on sophistry and solipsism? Er.. dude. I got that covered...

.. and my referents for the statement I just made are an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation and a Robert Heinlein novel.

Oh.. and a dictionary.

Learning and knowledge can be acquired anywhere and anytime a person is open to the experience. Like the 'Good Will Hunting' argument, mind-broadening experience is open to anybody with a library card.

You don't need a $100,000 college degree for that. All the degree proves, in the end, is that you were able to jump through a successive number of hoops over a given period of time. At the end, there is no real set measure of knowledge and cognitive ability actually received. It depends on the individual's desire to learn and grow.

This belief was actually sounded out at length in Robert Heinlein's novel 'The Number of the Beast'. A man abashedly gives his new bride permission to divorce him at will under any terms of her choosing when he admits to her that his doctorate was in education.

In other words, a diploma just says "We certify that we HAVE in fact lead this horse to water, and he drank!"

It does not, however, mention the quality of the water.. or how much he drank.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Sooo.. it teaches you to be a realist rather than a egotist that relies on sophistry and solipsism? Er.. dude. I got that covered...

.. and my referents for the statement I just made are an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation and a Robert Heinlein novel.

Oh.. and a dictionary.

Learning and knowledge can be acquired anywhere and anytime a person is open to the experience. Like the 'Good Will Hunting' argument, mind-broadening experience is open to anybody with a library card.

You don't need a $100,000 college degree for that. All the degree proves, in the end, is that you were able to jump through a successive number of hoops over a given period of time. At the end, there is no real set measure of knowledge and cognitive ability actually received. It depends on the individual's desire to learn and grow.

This belief was actually sounded out at length in Robert Heinlein's novel 'The Number of the Beast'. A man abashedly gives his new bride permission to divorce him at will under any terms of her choosing when he admits to her that his doctorate was in education.

In other words, a diploma just says "We certify that we HAVE in fact lead this horse to water, and he drank!"

It does not, however, mention the quality of the water.. or how much he drank.

Erm...I didn't study much Star Trek in college man, but I did read a lot of Descartes and basically yes, you are correct but it's a little bit more involved than you're making it seem. His book, "Meditations on First Philosophy" is jam packed full of a little bit more than the average Star Trek episode. It was just an example, which you seem to want to take a different direction than my original intent, but that's fine I guess. My degree didn't tell me how to think, it taught me how to think about things and examine them myself. My degree isn't a body of knowledge, but instead a body of tools that I use to construct and deconstruct arguments and statements.

Or said another way, I learned my philosophical tools by studying BS, and I use my philosophical tools to argue about political theory or put together electrical systems in my head or any number of other things that I want to apply my learned tools to.