Don't need a degree eh?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Ah hell. . .you're right.

Sorry guys, let the fun continue. Who's next? Am I up yet? I'm ready.



What follows is a generic mod comment:

Just like moving a thread that has no comedic value what-so-ever to the humor section?

Nevertheless, I enjoy the entertainment value that these consistent threads, about the same exact subjects provide. It shows the demographics of JC easier than a poll of if you have a 4 year degree or not. All the 4 year degree kiddies claim they are the greatest, and all the non-4 year kiddies claim that they are the greatest.

The usual pilot vs pilot rivalry continues.

I'm better than you - NO! I'm better than YOU! - NO!! I'M BETTER THAN YOU!!!!11

Steve C is probably the most level-headed common sense oriented guy on JC. I really don't understand your mod comment.

Topics repeat themselves on JC. They have to. There are tons of revolving new members who want advice and who don't know that we already had 73 safety pilot conversations in the last year. Think back to your first week on JC - all that info out there and it was all new to you. You didn't know that to some, the topics were very, very, well worn.

Never mind we all know the search function sucks - more importantly, if we stopped discussing these "repeaters," what would be left? Politics?

The degree topic is important. New pilots really need to know that not having a degree could be a limiting factor for them - and they need to know in what ways it can be a limiting factor.

The manner this information was presented originally in this thread obviously leaves something to be desired. Either he was on a drunken rant or we need more discussions entitled "Perception and the Internet: How not to look like a know it all." I've hung out with Jtrain and sure enough like he says, the way he comes off on the internet is not like in real life. In my opinion though, that's little excuse - John's information would be better received by all if not laced with what could be perceived as self congratulatory conceit. I'm pretty sure I remember you (John) bagging on the manner in which Velo writes, saying his points would hold more weight if not for his writing style. (And I say that with love, brother - I'm just trying to help you out.)

Nonetheless, I think many of the "old salts" would agree that this is a topic that needs occasional recycling.

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Topics repeat themselves on JC. They have to. There are tons of revolving new members who want advice and who don't know that we already had 73 safety pilot conversations in the last year. Think back to your first week on JC - all that info out there and it was all new to you. You didn't know that to some, the topics were very, very, well worn.

Personally, I think it is great that topics are repeated. Who knows when a member might have a new/different way of thinking or approaching a situation that could take the discussion in a whole new direction. That and I think the mods would prefer repeating topics rather than new members posting to topics several months old.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by ctab5060X

Personally, I think it is great that topics are repeated. Who knows when a member might have a new/different way of thinking or approaching a situation that could take the discussion in a whole new direction. That and I think the mods would prefer repeating topics rather than new members posting to topics several months old.

I, for one, absolutely prefer a new thread over necroposting! However, I would hope that someone would use the search function and still read those old threads. There is a great deal of information archived here, and by using "search" to find previous posts you may find the answer without having to make a new post. Or, you may find you have a whole NEW set of questions. In which case it's perfectly okay to link to or reference the old thread if you think it's necessary, without having to actually post to that old thread.

[surreal1221]

Would it be at all possible to collect ALL the significant college threads into one big sticky on the top of the forum?

That'd make it easier for those who don't use the search function to see the vast amount of information that has already been disseminated concerning the college topic.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Would it be at all possible to collect ALL the significant college threads into one big sticky on the top of the forum?

That'd make it easier for those who don't use the search function to see the vast amount of information that has already been disseminated concerning the college topic.

That's really not practical. If we did that for each topic which has already had amounts of data posted, each topic would be sticky'd and we would have a forum filled with sticky's...

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Steve C is probably the most level-headed common sense oriented guy on JC. I really don't understand your mod comment.

Topics repeat themselves on JC. They have to. There are tons of revolving new members who want advice and who don't know that we already had 73 safety pilot conversations in the last year. Think back to your first week on JC - all that info out there and it was all new to you. You didn't know that to some, the topics were very, very, well worn.

Never mind we all know the search function sucks - more importantly, if we stopped discussing these "repeaters," what would be left? Politics?

The degree topic is important. New pilots really need to know that not having a degree could be a limiting factor for them - and they need to know in what ways it can be a limiting factor.

The manner this information was presented originally in this thread obviously leaves something to be desired. Either he was on a drunken rant or we need more discussions entitled "Perception and the Internet: How not to look like a know it all." I've hung out with Jtrain and sure enough like he says, the way he comes off on the internet is not like in real life. In my opinion though, that's little excuse - John's information would be better received by all if not laced with what could be perceived as self congratulatory conceit. I'm pretty sure I remember you (John) bagging on the manner in which Velo writes, saying his points would hold more weight if not for his writing style. (And I say that with love, brother - I'm just trying to help you out.)

Nonetheless, I think many of the "old salts" would agree that this is a topic that needs occasional recycling.

The purpose was not to pat myself on the back, Ian, it was to give these kids a point of reference. How would you like to go into a test not knowing what you're up against?

Teacher: We're giving you a test today

Student: Alright! Over what?

Teacher: I can't tell you that, explaining the material to you might make you feel like you've done less preparation than me, so I'm just going to give you the test.

Student: But how are we supposed to know what the answers are if we have no frame of reference.

Teacher: Well I gave the answers to some of your class mates

Student: But, that's BS! They might know more than me because I didn't get the opportunity to have all the cards on the table!

Teacher: Deal with it, and good luck!

Ian to be completely honest my resume isn't that impressive, and if people think that it's really all that great then they need some SERIOUS introspection into their own career. When I'm up against guys like you, Seggy, FlyChicaga, Doug, Fly4Pay and all these other cats that have WAY more experience than I do, I shudder to think of how an interview would go down with me, Segs and Matt all in an interview at once. Simply put I wouldn't be invited to said interview, and if I was I'd be laughed out the door. How am I supposed to compete with a guy that has time in the military flying helicopters for thousands of hours and has some as an aircraft commander? I can't, simply put And THAT sir drives ME to better myself because as soon as I realize I'm behind the power curve, it gives me pause to realize that if I don't get on the ball I'm going to be left out in the cold.

[Firebird2XC]

This thread has devolved into the usual: My way is better than yours!

I've had this debate with my three siblings, because out of the four I'm the only one that didn't go to a traditional college setup to get a degree.

In terms of airline applications, it's just one of the ways an airline can choose to cull the herd of drooling applicants. We don't really have a choice about it. Like it or not, it's not up to us. That being said, arguing over whether or not it makes you more qualified as a pilot seems a little irrelevant. You could have a degree in a completely non-related field, and still show up with the same general skill set as a pilot who has never set foot in a college.

Example: In the Army, we had commissioned officers with (degree required) sitting next to warrant officers (no degree required) any given day in the helicopter. Who was a better, more qualified pilot? The guy who'd spent more time flying. Period.

Ergo, it doesn't make you more qualified as a pilot... just as an applicant, and that'll vary from place to place.

All this argument really boils down to is some pilots saying "I've got a resume bullet that yoooouuu don't.."

Then the contest ensues. Everybody breaks out a ruler to see who's biggest today. Oddly enough with some of the arguments I see... I think maybe a micrometer might be more in order...

That being said, no, I don't have a degree, and I didn't go to traditional four year college. I took a different path.

Am I getting a degree? You bet.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

This thread has devolved into the usual: My way is better than yours!

I've had this debate with my three siblings, because out of the four I'm the only one that didn't go to a traditional college setup to get a degree.

In terms of airline applications, it's just one of the ways an airline can choose to cull the herd of drooling applicants. We don't really have a choice about it. Like it or not, it's not up to us. That being said, arguing over whether or not it makes you more qualified as a pilot seems a little irrelevant. You could have a degree in a completely non-related field, and still show up with the same general skill set as a pilot who has never set foot in a college.

Example: In the Army, we had commissioned officers with (degree required) sitting next to warrant officers (no degree required) any given day in the helicopter. Who was a better, more qualified pilot? The guy who'd spent more time flying. Period.

Ergo, it doesn't make you more qualified as a pilot... just as an applicant, and that'll vary from place to place.

All this argument really boils down to is some pilots saying "I've got a resume bullet that yoooouuu don't.."

Then the contest ensues. Everybody breaks out a ruler to see who's biggest today. Oddly enough with some of the arguments I see... I think maybe a micrometer might be more in order...

That being said, no, I don't have a degree, and I didn't go to traditional four year college. I took a different path.

Am I getting a degree? You bet.

Excellent points! And you nailed it; it will make you a better qualified APPLICANT because when it boils down to it THAT is what matters. An airline can't see your great decision making skills in the Cessna 172, or that you are an awesome guy to hang out with, but they will make sure you meet the qualifications and if there is somebody more qualified sitting next to you, well, good luck.

[darrenf]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Not necessarily true in this business. I papered the world with resumes. I got hired by the airline that I didn't know a soul at. All the other ones where I had personal recommendations didn't give me the time of day.

You mean all the other companies that knew you, correct??

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

This thread has devolved into the usual: My way is better than yours!

I've had this debate with my three siblings, because out of the four I'm the only one that didn't go to a traditional college setup to get a degree.

In terms of airline applications, it's just one of the ways an airline can choose to cull the herd of drooling applicants. We don't really have a choice about it. Like it or not, it's not up to us. That being said, arguing over whether or not it makes you more qualified as a pilot seems a little irrelevant. You could have a degree in a completely non-related field, and still show up with the same general skill set as a pilot who has never set foot in a college.

Example: In the Army, we had commissioned officers with (degree required) sitting next to warrant officers (no degree required) any given day in the helicopter. Who was a better, more qualified pilot? The guy who'd spent more time flying. Period.

Ergo, it doesn't make you more qualified as a pilot... just as an applicant, and that'll vary from place to place.

All this argument really boils down to is some pilots saying "I've got a resume bullet that yoooouuu don't.."

Then the contest ensues. Everybody breaks out a ruler to see who's biggest today. Oddly enough with some of the arguments I see... I think maybe a micrometer might be more in order...

That being said, no, I don't have a degree, and I didn't go to traditional four year college. I took a different path.

Am I getting a degree? You bet.

Nice post Charlie, I agree 100%. Like I've stated before, I have friends from high school that went to college while I went in the military. Some of them ended up with a degree after 4+ years and to this day don't have a decent job.

One of my friends majored in history, because his parents made him go to college but he never really had any career aspirations. So now he's a labor worker making $13/hr but he has a 4yr degree.

I think military experience is invaluable to one's personal development, and being in the military in a crew environment is excellent preparation for this career.

The point being, that college is becoming the new high school. Just about everyone is going. And while a lot of kids are doing great things with College, and pursuing degrees in lucrative fields and doing well, I'd say the majority just piss away their parents money. College can make you more rounded as a high school grad, but I still think the military experience is above college. Needless to say, like you, I've got my GI bill and luckily while I was AD I was taking college courses when I could. Right now I'm at 60 credits and haven't touched a dime with my GI bill. I'm looking to start in the summer working towards a degree in Wildlife Management/Conservation. That way if I decide to bail from this career, my backup plan is to become a Conservation Officer.

But just because someone went to college doesn't make them better than the next guy. I'll put my military experience up against someone's degree anyday in terms of who has the better experience.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Airdale

But just because someone went to college doesn't make them better than the next guy. I'll put my military experience up against someone's degree anyday in terms of who has the better experience.

Me too. I think having a degree AND military service history is a huge boon to any applicant. For one, military service shows various qualities of character that a degree in alot of ways cannot. Having a degree AND military service (especially if you got the degree while serving full time) shows huge adaptability. I've heard this more than once.

As for the GI Bill- Embry Riddle wants $600 plus per class per three month term online. Since I'm using what's left of my GI Bill money to finance going back to school.. cheaper would be better. Know any good options?

Keep in mind, however, that Riddle gives a bucketload of credits to guys with commercial certificates in hand. That kinda evens it all out. Have any luck in that vein?

[Sprint100]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Me too. I think having a degree AND military service history is a huge boon to any applicant. For one, military service shows various qualities of character that a degree in alot of ways cannot. Having a degree AND military service (especially if you got the degree while serving full time) shows huge adaptability. I've heard this more than once.

I'm jealous I never went to the military, another dumb-a$$ decision by this immature, know it all teenager!!! All I had to do was get my arse up, meet up with my recruiter and other recruits, and go swear in at MEPS

[jtrain609]

YOU will put your military experience up against a college degree, but will an HR department? We're not discussing what YOU think is more valuable, we're talking about the people evaluating you think is more valuable. I'm not going to try to play down military experience at all, mostly because I don't know a ton about it and if you were a pilot in the military you most likely have MUCH better training than me, but what's the HR department think?

I think Firebird just nailed it, and this is what I was trying to get at with my initial post: you're setting yourself apart by having both of these boxes checked, and by doing so you're making yourself more competitive. Having both military experience AND a college degree is a one, two punch that most people can't hold a candle to.

I know I can't, and I'll have to work with other aspects of my resume to make myself more marketable in relation to those guys.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

YOU will put your military experience up against a college degree, but will an HR department? We're not discussing what YOU think is more valuable, we're talking about the people evaluating you think is more valuable. I'm not going to try to play down military experience at all, mostly because I don't know a ton about it and if you were a pilot in the military you most likely have MUCH better training than me, but what's the HR department think?

I think Firebird just nailed it, and this is what I was trying to get at with my initial post: you're setting yourself apart by having both of these boxes checked, and by doing so you're making yourself more competitive. Having both military experience AND a college degree is a one, two punch that most people can't hold a candle to.

I know I can't, and I'll have to work with other aspects of my resume to make myself more marketable in relation to those guys.

Oh I know we're talking HR departments here. My response was really just in reply to your tone in the initial post. I like you and all, but you sounded pretty "above all else" in your post because you went to college. Thats all.

[Qgar]

As in all industries, knowing people certainly doesn't hurt either. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way the world works.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Me too. I think having a degree AND military service history is a huge boon to any applicant. For one, military service shows various qualities of character that a degree in alot of ways cannot. Having a degree AND military service (especially if you got the degree while serving full time) shows huge adaptability. I've heard this more than once.

As for the GI Bill- Embry Riddle wants $600 plus per class per three month term online. Since I'm using what's left of my GI Bill money to finance going back to school.. cheaper would be better. Know any good options?

Keep in mind, however, that Riddle gives a bucketload of credits to guys with commercial certificates in hand. That kinda evens it all out. Have any luck in that vein?

Dude, screw Riddle!! You're going to lose half of your GI bill. Look into Utah Valley State College. They have online degree programs and they will give you the same credit for your Aviation certs. that riddle will at half the price.

When I was active duty, I was doing Thomas Edison State College, in NJ. They have online programs as well. My 60 credits to date do not include credit for aviation certs. I received some credits from them for military training and experience, but mostly I worked out 2 years of my required Gen. Ed. courses through online courses and CLEP tests.

What I plan to do is enroll in UVSC, get credit for my Aviation certs then transfer those to Thomas Edison and at that point, I'll just have to take my degree related courses in the Conservation field, which includes a few labs that I'll have to work out between my schedule.

Do it cheap my friend!! Don't waste your GI bill just for the name on the paper.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I think Firebird just nailed it, and this is what I was trying to get at with my initial post: you're setting yourself apart by having both of these boxes checked, and by doing so you're making yourself more competitive. Having both military experience AND a college degree is a one, two punch that most people can't hold a candle to.

I know I can't, and I'll have to work with other aspects of my resume to make myself more marketable in relation to those guys.

Thanks. The downside to my scheme is that in the interim, the market may change. Getting the flying gig first was the number one priority because you can go to college in your spare time- you can't fly a full time airline job in your spare time. Now I have to finish about 50% of a degree by the time I've been a captain for two years.

That's one of the reasons why I came to Eagle not sweating upgrade so much. If a degree is really a hard requirement for serious consideration, I've got a few years before I need that TPIC. Then again, by the time I get it all done the company or industry might've just tanked and I'll be glad I have my seniority number.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Oh I know we're talking HR departments here. My response was really just in reply to your tone in the initial post. I like you and all, but you sounded pretty "above all else" in your post because you went to college. Thats all.

I ain't above much of anybody man. Almost all my friends are better qualified than me and I'm WELL aware of it. I hope others realize that getting this job isn't about how good you feel about your qualifications and how swell of a guy you are, but that if you don't man up and get competitive with this job you WILL find yourself on the street and your buddy that did X thing better than you has the job you wanted (by you I don't mean the you, Dale, just a general you).

As Doug said, this country isn't great because of scoreless soccer, it's great because people are willing to pummel each other to get to the top and be the absolute best, not meet the absolute minimum.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Dude, screw Riddle!! You're going to lose half of your GI bill. Look into Utah Valley State College. They have online degree programs and they will give you the same credit for your Aviation certs. that riddle will at half the price.

When I was active duty, I was doing Thomas Edison State College, in NJ. They have online programs as well. My 60 credits to date do not include credit for aviation certs. I received some credits from them for military training and experience, but mostly I worked out 2 years of my required Gen. Ed. courses through online courses and CLEP tests.

What I plan to do is enroll in UVSC, get credit for my Aviation certs then transfer those to Thomas Edison and at that point, I'll just have to take my degree related courses in the Conservation field, which includes a few labs that I'll have to work out between my schedule.

Do it cheap my friend!! Don't waste your GI bill just for the name on the paper.

Yeah.. do it cheap, but how much cheaper? I've already had a coupla classes with Riddle, and would I get equal credits elsewhere?

Cheaper IS better, of course, as I just want the sheepskin.. I'm just curious if you know anything about prices? Getting some of these places to pony up numbers is a little trying. Especially when they hear GI Bill- because they envision a guy sitting there with 40 grand to blow.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Sprint100

I'm jealous I never went to the military, another dumb-a$$ decision by this immature, know it all teenager!!! All I had to do was get my arse up, meet up with my recruiter and other recruits, and go swear in at MEPS

If you still want to do it, there's always the Guard.

One weekend a month, two weeks a year...

... unless they throw in a year deployment somewhere hot and sandy.

Don't stress yourself too much man. It's a resume bullet, to be sure, but you could say that I bet my life on it. Getting shot at is only a fun story if the bad guys always miss.

[Doug Taylor]

Learn where you're happiest learning so that way you'll get it done.

If I'm ever on a hiring board, I'm going to get my kicks from asking, "So, how was Utah? You, uhh, didn't actually go to school in Utah? But your, OOOOOOH! One of them!"

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

As Doug said, this country isn't great because of scoreless soccer, it's great because people are willing to pummel each other to get to the top and be the absolute best, not meet the absolute minimum.

The above state is true, but getting to the top doesn't always require working harder.

If the rungs on the ladder are a little closer together, it's easier to climb higher, faster. Personally I think using the 'minimum requirements' to reach that next rung doesn't mean you'll get the minimum return on that investment.

It's all about the cost of that opportunity. If I knew I could get hired at a major without a degree, a degree would be way further down my priority list.

It's like that movie 'Accepted' where Lewis Black is ranting about the BS they throw out at colleges these days. You can talk about being 'well-rounded' and a more developed individual all you want, but the real truth behind colleges these days is that they're selling tickets to a better job pool.

[Qgar]

I'm curious as to whether there are any people on JC now who are on any airline hiring boards.