Got to get some mentoring....

[ppragman]

So here's the deal, I really enjoy my job, but I often find the captains taking us below minimums into mountainous terrain and way passed the missed approach point. Frankly this really unnerves in that I don't feel that I know the terrain (even in my on state) well enough to muck arround below mins in hard IMC, and though the captains have many many hours (some greater than 5k in the airplane) I'm not sure if it is arrogant to be alarmed or not. I know I have a lot to learn, but ya know, sometimes I think just following the plate is a good idea.

[aloft]

You're in Alaska. Things there are...different.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by ppragman

So here's the deal, I really enjoy my job, but I often find the captains taking us below minimums into mountainous terrain and way passed the missed approach point.

That is a good way to die.

Frankly this really unnerves in that I don't feel that I know the terrain (even in my on state) well enough to muck arround below mins in hard IMC,

Of course it does. Why? Its called survival instinct.

and though the captains have many many hours (some greater than 5k in the airplane) I'm not sure if it is arrogant to be alarmed or not. I know I have a lot to learn, but ya know, sometimes I think just following the plate is a good idea.

Of course it isn't arrogant. You have an obligation to your passengers, your Company and, above all, your family to perform instrument approaches to minimums and no lower.

I had a Captain once tell me in the Briefing, "I've flown up here for 30 years. So when we get to XXX, you don't mind if we drop down to 800 feet or so (mins 1200) do you?" I said, "Hey, if you've got the airport environment in sight, you can go as low as you want. But, if we don't see anything at 1200' were executing a missed approach. And, if you don't I will."

End of discussion.

Originally Posted by aloft

You're in Alaska. Things there are...different.

No they're not. People who do stupid things in airplanes die in Alaska, too. And do you think these morons would do the same thing if there was an FAA inspector riding the jumpseat?

[calcapt]

ppragman you just got a pretty definitive answer from someone who knows. I happen to agree with Velo 100 percent. Stupidity doesn't stop at state lines. I know many high time and accomplished pilots who have killed themselves and those who are in their care by doing stupid things. You have a responsibility to take a stand against the bad examples you are witnessing.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

That is a good way to die.



Of course it does. Why? Its called survival instinct.



Of course it isn't arrogant. You have an obligation to your passengers, your Company and, above all, your family to perform instrument approaches to minimums and no lower.

I had a Captain once tell me in the Briefing, "I've flown up here for 30 years. So when we get to XXX, you don't mind if we drop down to 800 feet or so (mins 1200) do you?" I said, "Hey, if you've got the airport environment in sight, you can go as low as you want. But, if we don't see anything at 1200' were executing a missed approach. And, if you don't I will."

End of discussion.



No they're not. People who do stupid things in airplanes die in Alaska, too. And do you think these morons would do the same thing if there was an FAA inspector riding the jumpseat?

Couldn't agree more.
The reason so many accidents happen there is people have that attitude. I would move and look for a different job. That is only because I like living more than flying.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Couldn't agree more.
The reason so many accidents happen there is people have that attitude. I would move and look for a different job. That is only because I like living more than flying.

True, still gotta pay the bills though...

Where the hell else could a guy go, its expensive to move down to the states, right now prohibitvely so, and almost all of the operators up here are like this in one way or another, and the ones that aren't don't pay there pilots worth a ####.

[vheissu]

Originally Posted by ppragman

True, still gotta pay the bills though...

Your life isn't worth a paycheck.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by ppragman

True, still gotta pay the bills though...

Where the hell else could a guy go, its expensive to move down to the states, right now prohibitvely so, and almost all of the operators up here are like this in one way or another, and the ones that aren't don't pay there pilots worth a ####.

Well, if Captains are not listening to you, their FO, and they insist on violating FAR's, throw'em under the bus. I hate to say it man, but its your life, don't let some Jerk Off, high strung Captain get you killed. Stand up, its your JOB. You CAN NOT let a Captain operate that aircraft in an unsafe manner. Captains Authority my ass!! The Captain is the Captain, and HIS job is to operate the aircraft SAFELY and LEGALLY. Neither of which he/they are doing.

Take a stand and don't let it happen. Just because you wear 3 stripes and he wears 4, doesn't mean you have no say in the operation of the aircraft when it comes to safety. Throw these guys under the bus, write a report to the Chief pilot, Director of Safety AND the FAA. Someone is going to get killed playing "Cowboy". Save your life and someone else's, don't tolerate it.

[Airdale]

And just to add - I've had a few situations flying with Captains that were putting myself AND the passengers at risk for an accident. I do not and will not tolerate it.

I think I'm a pretty good FO in the sense that I don't overstep boundaries in the airplane. I know my place as a First Officer and respect every Captain I fly with. BUT, that does not stop me from protecting myself and our passengers from unsafe operation. I don't care how many stripes the dude next to me has, 6 for all I care. Start flying in a hazard manner, dropping below mins, wandering around in solid IMC past the MAP, I will call ATC and do everything possible to keep things safe.

A lot of younger FO's think that they can not do anything about how a Captain operates the aircraft. And this is true to some extent. You certainly have to know your role and understand the Captain's Authority. But a Captain, regardless of his/her experience, has ZERO authority short of Declaring an Emergency, to violate the FAR's, especially on an approach.

Sorry, this topic aggrevates me.

[Nihon_Ni]

Originally Posted by ppragman

True, still gotta pay the bills though...

Where the hell else could a guy go, its expensive to move down to the states, right now prohibitvely so, and almost all of the operators up here are like this in one way or another, and the ones that aren't don't pay there pilots worth a ####.

It sounds like you've made up your mind to set aside good judgment for a better paycheck, and what you're seeking is one of us to justify your decision.

Think of it this way: If you were going to buy a ticket put your family on a plane and you knew the pilots had this habit, would you still do it? I mean, after all, they have bills to pay...and it's too expensive for them to move.

Hope your will is in order.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Well, if Captains are not listening to you, their FO, and they insist on violating FAR's, throw'em under the bus. I hate to say it man, but its your life, don't let some Jerk Off, high strung Captain get you killed. Stand up, its your JOB. You CAN NOT let a Captain operate that aircraft in an unsafe manner. Captains Authority my ass!! The Captain is the Captain, and HIS job is to operate the aircraft SAFELY and LEGALLY. Neither of which he/they are doing.

Take a stand and don't let it happen. Just because you wear 3 stripes and he wears 4, doesn't mean you have no say in the operation of the aircraft when it comes to safety. Throw these guys under the bus, write a report to the Chief pilot, Director of Safety AND the FAA. Someone is going to get killed playing "Cowboy". Save your life and someone else's, don't tolerate it.

If this is the way things are at his airline then your advice amounts to "make a big stink and lose your job and good luck getting another one with the recommendations you're going to get."

In my career I have quit jobs over safety, cold, without another job lined up. But I left on good terms so I could keep moving up.

It's one thing if your high profile crusade would make a difference. It's another if it only hurts you and helps no one.

[ppragman]

just holdin' out for more time now, get some extra hours and get a different job, and I'm safe

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by ppragman

just holdin' out for more time now, get some extra hours and get a different job, and I'm safe

If you live. That's the key thing. If this kinda dangerous stuff was going on where I work, I'd rather be flipping burgers. Like was said earlier, I prefer living to flying. How is more time gonna help you if the CA puts you in the ground 3 hours short of that other job?

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by ppragman

just holdin' out for more time now, get some extra hours and get a different job, and I'm safe

So, you're learnin' how to do all that cowboy stuff them Alaska pilots are famous for, eh? Yeah, I envy you. Wish i couldda done more of that stuff in my younger days...I'd probably have more excitin' war stories to tell.

I did it a couple times in my younger day...but it scared the bejesus outta me 'n I couldn't do it anymore 'n had to come back to the lower '48 and the flatlands to get my game back.

[I_Money]

You can not be fired for being a whistle blower - well you can, but you will make a ton more money in court than you would flying.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by ppragman

True, still gotta pay the bills though...

I guess your life insurance will pay the bills . . .

[FlyChicaga]

I recommend reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Darker-Shades-.../dp/0070349274

There is a section talking about Downeast Airlines and a crash that shed light upon very shady business practices and managerial pressures upon pilots to "take chances" and "just go a little lower." This sounds eerily familiar.

[tonyw]

You know, this was the cause of many problems at Korean before they cleaned things up. First officers would defer to captains even though they were doing something dangerous because the company's culture was to do so.

You don't have to toss away your career doing the right thing. Just a call or two to the FAA would probably do the trick.

No evidence you did it, right? Cause you'd make the call from say a hotel room or via Skype and nobody would know where it came from!

[OldTownPilot]

Ahhh good ole Downeast. The guy we get our christmas trees from flew for Downeast, then Bar Harbor, when they were bought out, and retired from CO a couple of years back.

Was that about the RKD twin otter, or the AUG navajo? Both probable causes were flight in IMC below the MDA on non-precision approaches.

EDIT: Upon further research it would have been the RKD one. That was the year before the airline was sold. The CA was the CP for the airline. The NTSB report is http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR80-05.pdf
Its a good read into the human factors.

[falconvalley]

My dad was in your shoes in the late 70's. Low time, flying with someone who was The Skipper and would frequently do things that were not legal, including going below mins without the lights. My dad thought about his family and decided to walk, taking his chances. The Skipper skipped right into his grave, going below mins not too long after that.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by I_Money

You can not be fired for being a whistle blower - well you can, but you will make a ton more money in court than you would flying.

Yeah. I hear there's a big fly-in community down in Florida with huge houses and jets parked out front. And it's restricted to pilots who have made huge money on whistle blower lawsuits.

[ASpilot2be]

Off topic/
Were you down in Ketchikan today? I was sitting there and watched an ACE plane pull up. You guys pack alot of crap in those planes

/end off topic

[FlyOrDie]

Originally Posted by ppragman

So here's the deal, I really enjoy my job, but I often find the captains taking us below minimums into mountainous terrain and way passed the missed approach point. Frankly this really unnerves in that I don't feel that I know the terrain (even in my on state) well enough to muck arround below mins in hard IMC, and though the captains have many many hours (some greater than 5k in the airplane) I'm not sure if it is arrogant to be alarmed or not. I know I have a lot to learn, but ya know, sometimes I think just following the plate is a good idea.

I sent you a PM and please call me. I had a good discussion with a couple of Captains at my airline about this very sort of subject. My philosphy on flying is regardless of if is passengers or freight are paying in the back, its simply this, once we get in the airplane it could end up anywhere due to diverting for weather or mx. The worst thing that would happen is we end up making a few extra bucks more than we were originally expecting to. This happened one morning in Bethel a nice fog bank rolled through and we had to go missed wait, 20 minutes and then try again that morning I got $15 extra just for saying the magic words "Go missed." Nobody from the company said anything to us about it.

As for the Alaska discussion as long as people accept the excuse that "its Alaska" this crap is going to continue to happen and people are going to continue dying tragically. Your career and your life aren't worth "getting the job done." If you can't get the job done for reasons outside of your control that's the company's problem for not giving you a good airplane or sending you someplace that was questionable to begin with.

I hate getting the FAA involved but with recent events at your company this might be a good time to remind Captains that if they're not flying to regulations you don't want to be anywhere near them and that you do hold an amazing amount of power because you are a required crewmember!

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by ppragman

just holdin' out for more time now, get some extra hours and get a different job, and I'm safe

What is your TT and what do you make now? I would think with the people on here and the pilot shortage you can get a reasonable job that you don't have to put your life on the line for.

LIVING > Flying