Oil pushes to $100

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by flyover

Man I don't like it and you are absolutely right about the farm subsidies. Farmers are the biggest welfare recipients there are and it hasn't been good for US farming.

My grandparents were farmers and lived in poverty from the day they were born to the day they died. They owned several hundred acres (not a lot, I know) and grew primarily corn and soybeans.

Farmers are some of the most hard working people on this planet. The (little) money they received went right back into their farm and community, vs. the money that crackheads get for unemployment and welfare buying drugs and alcohol.

Like tony said, it's the big time farms that are the big scams, not the small time farmers.

[SJM]

Originally Posted by N519AT

But you do have a choice! You can always pick up a used Volkswagen TDI, which runs Diesel, Bio-Diesel or even Veggy oil if you so desire. I get an average of 48 mpg and about 700 miles/tank (there is evidence of people going much further on a tank...over 1000 mi). Sure I pay a little more than the gassers out there for my fuel, but if you figure that an average gas automobile gets 25 MPG...we'll round mine to 50 mpg. I get twice what the gassers get, so at a price of $3.00/gal...my fuel would have to go up to $6.00/gal before I was even with the gasser next to me...

They're cleaner for the environment too and pilots love them!

/enddieselsalespitch

Actually diesels are not cleaner than gassers for the environment. Gasoline burns way more clean than diesel in most cases. Ever stand behind a diesel car or truck when it takes off? They emit a visible cloud of black soot that you can smell as well. The reason why diesels are not more popular in US is because of laws governing vehicle emissions, which get more strict every year, especially in CA. This way, for companies like VW that offer diesel cars for US consumers to stay in the market, they must work to make their diesel models burn ultra-clean ($$$).

In countries like Czech Rep. 90% of the cars on the road are powered by diesel, and they do see better fuel economy, but this is because Europe in general has more lenient laws regarding emissions.

Strict Emissions Laws = slower, more expensive, less fuel efficient cars. The future favors hybrids, fuel cell, and electric cars over diesel/bioD.

[Chet Kelly]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I agree with your assessment, and some of your points such as you driving a 15 mpg truck because you can. You are right! We are in America and you can do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt others.

That said, you are NOT the average American. Average Americans do NOT earn $200k/yr (more like around $40k/yr) and do NOT have a paid for car.

If you've been following my posts, I pointed out that the average American has a $360/month car payment. They have no additional large capital expenditures because they are already paying for their car. They would simply trade in one car for another.

I am however, agreeing with you personally. I ran the math in a previous post. It would take my wife 15 years to break even, and at my level of consumption 23 years to break even having free gas vs. buying a new car, even ignoring the insurance costs of buying a new "pre-owned" $7000 diesel with cash. A "new" $28,000 VW diesel would probably take infinity!!

That's for you. Again, you are NOT the average American. Put yourself in the shoes of the average person here. That's what my argument was tailored for, not a gentlemen who makes 99% more than the population...

I'll be honest, I really do expect people to switch but maybe I am wrong. Maybe they won't want to give up their gas powered cars. I would honestly think the average commuter would be up for it, but like I said I could be wrong. It really is only about $125/month in savings to the average person so I suppose the amount really isn't that significant.

Wheelsup,

Thanks for a good and well-thought response, I enjoyed reading it. I would agree that I am above average with regards to the income level. However, I do vividly remember the pre-major days of paycheck-to-paycheck living. It's what motivates me to live below my means and to be thankful for what I now have - not a day goes by where I take it for granted.

This might be slightly off topic, but I want to share something with regards to my truck. It is low mileage, it is paid for, and it is approaching 7 years old this month. It also took me almost 5 years to pay it off. I purchased it as a new-hire during a time where I had other debt such as a credit card and outstanding school loans - and a $25K/yr income. I learned a lesson with that purchase and I would like to share it in the hopes of helping someone avoid the pinch that I experienced.

They have no additional large capital expenditures because they are already paying for their car. They would simply trade in one car for another.

What would I have done differently knowing then what I know now? Instead of trading in the vehicle (that I still owed money on) and purchasing a new one, I would have sold the old vehicle and purchased a very inexpensive vehicle relative to my income at the time. With the money I would be saving by not having a car payment, I could have invested that money in a good interest-bearing account and paid cash for a newer vehicle. Not brand new, but rather slightly used.

I agree that the majority of Americans are in the $40K/yr category, and purchasing something that is more fuel efficient would be of great interest to them. Trust me, if I were in that income bracket I don't think I would be looking to own my truck long-term. But, because cars depreciate in value and they would more than likely take on more debt purchasing a more fuel-efficient vehicle, is it in a person's best interest to do so? That answer depends on each individual family.

My point? Car payments bring bondage to a person in any income bracket. I know people making in the $40K-$50K range who have amassed more wealth than captains making greater than $250K/yr. Income is a number based on what your employer is willing to pay you. Accumulation of wealth is based on one's behavior as to how they manage their income.

I would hate to see someone needlessly take on more debt on the premise of saving more money at the gas pump. Of course if they can afford to change cars then I'm all for it. But, a lot of the problem in America has to do with people looking at monthly payments vs long-term financial implications. (a good example is the sub-prime mess)

As you can probably tell, I'm not a big fan of car payments. After the lessons I learned with the purchase of my truck, I am in no hurry to trade it in unless I can pay cash for my next vehicle. Wants are one thing, needs are another, but the determining factor is "can I afford it". Hopefully the sharing of my experience will help some of you avoid a potential financial pitfall.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

My grandparents were farmers and lived in poverty from the day they were born to the day they died. They owned several hundred acres (not a lot, I know) and grew primarily corn and soybeans.

Farmers are some of the most hard working people on this planet. The (little) money they received went right back into their farm and community, vs. the money that crackheads get for unemployment and welfare buying drugs and alcohol.

Like tony said, it's the big time farms that are the big scams, not the small time farmers.

Right there w/ ya on that one. Like you, my Grandparents have a 100+ acre farm in PA w/ corn being the prime commodity. It's sad they work so hard for so little.

But yet we continue to 'develop' farm land (because that's where the money is at) to put up parking lots (ala housing projects and Wal-marts). We are going to be very sad when there is no more farm land and we're importing our food from Russia and China.

[athomeinthesky]

Originally Posted by Cruise

But yet we continue to 'develop' farm land (because that's where the money is at) to put up parking lots (ala housing projects and Wal-marts). We are going to be very sad when there is no more farm land and we're importing our food from Russia and China.

Is that really a problem in America? I mean most of the country is not that developed outside of the city's and it is a really big country. I have heard things like that about small European countries but not about here.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

My grandparents were farmers and lived in poverty from the day they were born to the day they died. They owned several hundred acres (not a lot, I know) and grew primarily corn and soybeans.

Farmers are some of the most hard working people on this planet. The (little) money they received went right back into their farm and community, vs. the money that crackheads get for unemployment and welfare buying drugs and alcohol.

Like tony said, it's the big time farms that are the big scams, not the small time farmers.

I'm with you on the hard-working good people comment. I put in my share of 16 hour days when it was hump time. And my grandparents didn't get rich farming either. In the part of the country where my family's farm is there are no small farmers anymore, unless they are hobby farmers. And most of the farmers there wouldn't want you to know how much of your money they get to farm.

But my statement still stands and it is undeniable that American farms are welfare projects now. Just much wealthier than the stereotypical welfare recipient. (BTW, to all you taxpayers, thanks for the help with the flying lessons, the airplane and the cabin on the lake. Don't worry, you guys are all to young to have paid for my lessons.)

But yet we continue to 'develop' farm land (because that's where the money is at) to put up parking lots (ala housing projects and Wal-marts). We are going to be very sad when there is no more farm land and we're importing our food from Russia and China.

It's a good scare line but not based at all on any reality in this country.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

See, here's the thing, the USA isn't really a democracy, we're a republic!

If we in fact were a true democracy then if 51% of people voted that law into effect then 49% of the people who voted against it would have to just deal!

Well put and entirely accurate.

[jtrain609]

Not exactly accurate, flyover.

That's the traditional Greek direct democracy. Because we're a representative democracy, which is still very much a democracy, we have people vote for us in proxy.

Further Max's statement is void because of our Bill of Rights and the idea that we have majority rule while protecting minority rights.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by flyover

I'm with you on the hard-working good people comment. I put in my share of 16 hour days when it was hump time. And my grandparents didn't get rich farming either. In the part of the country where my family's farm is there are no small farmers anymore, unless they are hobby farmers. And most of the farmers there wouldn't want you to know how much of your money they get to farm.

But my statement still stands and it is undeniable that American farms are welfare projects now. Just much wealthier than the stereotypical welfare recipient. (BTW, to all you taxpayers, thanks for the help with the flying lessons, the airplane and the cabin on the lake. Don't worry, you guys are all to young to have paid for my lessons.)

It's a good scare line but not based at all on any reality in this country.

I disagree! Completely! I've seen it happening, first hand. So, while you might think it's a 'scare line,' you'd be wrong in that assumption.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Not exactly accurate, flyover.

That's the traditional Greek direct democracy. Because we're a representative democracy, which is still very much a democracy, we have people vote for us in proxy.

Further Max's statement is void because of our Bill of Rights and the idea that we have majority rule while protecting minority rights.

the US is a federal constitutional republic. just to be clear.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Further Max's statement is void because of our Bill of Rights and the idea that we have majority rule while protecting minority rights.

That's just plain wrong. We do not have majority rule. That's not our system of government. Our founders did not believe in democracy and went out of their way to insure America was not a democracy.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Cruise

I disagree! Completely! I've seen it happening, first hand. So, while you might think it's a 'scare line,' you'd be wrong in that assumption.

No, you'd be wrong. But that's OK. There's worse things to be wrong on.

[Doug Taylor]

All you young whippershnappers are WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Sorry bro, had to do it!

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Not exactly accurate, flyover.

That's the traditional Greek direct democracy. Because we're a representative democracy, which is still very much a democracy, we have people vote for us in proxy.

Further Max's statement is void because of our Bill of Rights and the idea that we have majority rule while protecting minority rights.

Actually we are a Representative Republic.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

All you young whippershnappers are WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Sorry bro, had to do it!

Well Max was right on this thread! It's a start.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by flyover

No, you'd be wrong. But that's OK. There's worse things to be wrong on.

Hmmm, don't know what color the glasses are, that you're looking through. But from what I've SEEN, there is major amounts of farm land being raped to the likes of 'developers.' In fact, around every corner there's a new Megalomart, super-duper housing development, highway, freeway.....all in the name of progress. Tell me, when is the last time the neighborhood Megalomart was torn down and converted to farmland????? Oh, what's that, you can't......because it doesn't happen.

So again, I say to you, you are wrong! We are losing farmland....rapidly....to deny this fact is delusional.

It's unfortunate you seem to think differently....and I don't expect to change your point of view on the subject. You obviously choose to remain blindly ignorant on the subject. But the facts don't lie!

Farm facts below!

Loosing Farms

Another

[darrenf]

Originally Posted by Cruise

Loosing Farms

Where are we sending them??

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by darrenf

Where are we sending them??

To the land of concrete and asphalt! (not to be confused w/ the land of sugarplum fairies)

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Cruise

Hmmm, don't know what color the glasses are, that you're looking through. But from what I've SEEN, there is major amounts of farm land being raped to the likes of 'developers.' In fact, around every corner there's a new Megalomart, super-duper housing development, highway, freeway.....all in the name of progress. Tell me, when is the last time the neighborhood Megalomart was torn down and converted to farmland????? Oh, what's that, you can't......because it doesn't happen.

So again, I say to you, you are wrong! We are losing farmland....rapidly....to deny this fact is delusional.

It's unfortunate you seem to think differently....and I don't expect to change your point of view on the subject. You obviously choose to remain blindly ignorant on the subject. But the facts don't lie!

Farm facts below!

Loosing Farms

Another

Well, I don't know about choosing to remain blindly ignorant. Maybe I just can't help it. But I have spent much of my life on a farm and the rest of it flying over them, and there is just no "rapid" or "major amounts" of farmland being "raped".

Of all the possible things to lose sleep over this one doesn't make the top 100. But worry on dude!