Why not

[toddnorrish]

Hi all,

I am hoping that I might be able to get some insight from some of the professional pilots that find themselves reading this thread. As mentioned in a previous post, I am commercially rated multi/single w/ instrument ticket. My times are 400TT/50multi. All of this experience is between 15 and 20 years old. 20 years ago I wanted to be a CFI because it was the most logical and cost effective route to the airlines, which was my goal. Today, I know that picking up my CFI is still a very logical route to this goal. However as I see it, the goal of being a regional FO is much more attainable today than it was 20 years ago.

Here is the issue that I am struggling with. I would by no means be able to simply go out, spend a few grand and pick up my CFI. I would effectively be starting from scratch. I would have to relearn everything, just to pass a check ride let alone to help educate a new aviator. This would take considerable effort and time. Oh by the way, for the record, I am 43 years old, married with two daughters. My family and I understand that this is going to be a huge sacrifice and are willing to endure this, however we also understand that with my past experience, there may be more than one way to skin this cat.

The question that has been presented to me is whether or not I really need my CFI. Is it really necessary to know that all the symptoms of Hypoxia? As I understand it, at FL300, I won’t have a lot of time to check my fingernails, because I will have been properly trained to put my mask on in a handful of seconds and save the day. Why should I need to know and recite the difference between a float type and pressure type carburetor. I learned all of this a long time ago. My point being is that it would seem a lot of wasted time and effort when so much that I would be relearning would not apply to my end goal as much as it once had.

I have been pouring over these forums for the last few weeks and see a marked frustration level among the seasoned professionals out there. If my dream would have come to fruition 20 years ago, I could see where I might be resentful of who I were sharing the cockpit with. That be what it may, I have seen all of the negative threads pertaining to the inexperienced pilots sitting in the right seat. I really don’t need to read all of that again, but what I am interested in is this. In the face of today’s aviation industry, pertaining to hiring, and for someone in my position with my tickets and ratings (which as I understand, never expire) why not a quick paced program that teaches some of the real skills that I would need to be an FO, and increase my chances with an airline to be interviewed. Where, I would hope that with my age and life’s experience, would benefit me?.

I expect the expected. In addition to becoming current in all realms, I will also need to put some time under my belt so that I have more than 15 hours of current flight time. This is a given. But from there, why not?

[GalaxyIFE]

There are obviously many opinions out there on the CFI vs. Non-CFI route, so I will not elaborate there. I would simply say to go get current AND proficient and send out some resumes, it can't hurt, right? I can tell you have no desire to be a CFI and you would be doing a disservice to those you might instruct. I do find it odd that you don't want to deepen the breadth of knowledge though...I can't personally can't learn enough about aviation...

[JAM]

I think if you could land some type of entry-level piston job, that would get you the recency you need asap. From there, just put in your apps. If you're still breathing, my bet is you will get interviews.

[Ian J]

I certanly see what you're saying.

Questions: Have you regained your currency yet?

More importantly, after you regain(ed) your currency, how will you regain your proficiency? CFI-ing is a way, but there are many others, too, which I'm sure you've read about in your research.

I assume for a quick paced course you are referring to an RJ course - which I understand, but though they won't refresh you in hypoxia and float carbs, they also won't refresh you in the FAR/AIM and a myriad of other subjects you need to be very familiar with.

Do you *need* to CFI? Absolutely not, especially if you don't want to. But because you haven't used your aviation knowledge and skills for quite some time, you probably will need more training than a quickie RJ course can offer.

At any rate, good luck to you.

[toddnorrish]

Thank you for your input. It is not that I do not want to be a CFI, or that I don't want to broaden my depth of aviation knowledge, I just feel that time is of paramount importance. I am simply looking for the quickest way to reach a paying job. From there, the sky is the limit. CFI, II, ME. heck ya. But is it necessary to find work with the airlines now?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by toddnorrish

But is it necessary to find work with the airlines now?

We have current JC members who work for regionals now who never CFI-ed, some with less flight time than you.

[BE19Pilot]

Hi Todd,
I don't think that you are making a mistake by considering a career change to be an airline pilot, or in some other sector of aviation. However, you have to consider what you'll be sacrificing for this type of work. If your spouse has an income that can support your household, and has good benefits that is a big step in the right direction. If not, then you might need to reconsider if you can take the financial hit for a couple of years.
Opportunities do exist for folks with your flight times, but currency is also an important consideration and your lack of ME/IMC time. Having said all that, you are still hireable if you able to get an interview. Many regionals are actively recruiting folks with your qualifications. With your age and life experience, you bring maturity, leadership and judgement to the cockpit.
Here is what I suggest:
1. Examine your financial situation and evaluate how it will impact your family in the near term.
2. Consider spending the money to get your CFI, and part-time instructing. This will get you back in the saddle, getting PIC time and will demonstrate your committment.
3. Avoid any of the "pilot mills" offering a quick seat in the regionals. They will do it, but the cost in $$$ isn't worth it. The only outfit I'd suggest would be www.allatps.com Proven track record and you can get your CFI (ME and Instrument-Airplane) in two weeks. Intense course, but worth the money. I did it and was instructing the following week full-time.
4. Try and get some ME and IMC time at any opportunity.
Best of luck and send your resume into www.colganair.com You never know! I am a Beech 1900 Captain/Check Airman here and we need pilots for all platforms.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

Feel free to PM me

[GalaxyIFE]

Originally Posted by BE19Pilot

Hi Todd,


3. Avoid any of the "pilot mills" offering a quick seat in the regionals. They will do it, but the cost in $$$ isn't worth it. The only outfit I'd suggest would be www.allatps.com Proven track record and you can get your CFI (ME and Instrument-Airplane) in two weeks. Intense course, but worth the money. I did it and was instructing the following week full-time.

ex-Navy Rotorhead

Feel free to PM me

I don't think they are doing the initial CFI anymore....just for the ACCP program. Please correct me if I'm wrong, though!

[LoadMasterC141]

Yeah they nixed the CFI Initial at ATP.

You bring up alot of good stuff Todd. Let me say this: I flew 27 hours in '92-93. Never anything but basic solo stuff. 12 years later, the flying was like getting on a bike again personally.

However, the knowledge had changed quite a bit, and what I had learned before was almosty completely gone. In fact, if you do not know, the national airspace system changed GREATLY in the early '90s. I do think you need some brushing up. A Sporty's PPL, IFR, Commercial DVD set would accomplish fine probably.

[BE19Pilot]

Bummer,
I didn't realize that they got rid of the CFI program. I did it 6 years ago and it was a really good program and worth every cent. I guess with the way supply and demand is working it's more profitable to do the Pro-pilot type programs and flood the market with "300-hour wonders" with jobs in CRJ/ERJ awaiting them.

[LoadMasterC141]

Actually I believe the reason is that they are really short of 2 year CFIs to be able to do add-ons and ACPP students. I would guess it is not gone forever.

[Beechlover]

We are in somewhat similiar situations I'll just share with you a little about what I've seen/done. I'm 43 also, will be 44 in 3 weeks. The short story is shortly after marrying my second wife (2 yrs ago) we decided that we were gonna live life to fullest.., we both quit our well paying jobs, sold the house to cash out the equity, and moved to florida so I could get my flight training started. Moved here last Sep of '06 started flying in October. She's a RN so work is REALLY easy to find, and I'm Retired USAF so I provide a pension (not much) and the military medical/dental for us.., oh and all our kids are GROWN and out the door!

Ok, So I completed all my retaings up through MEI/CFI-II and began instructing in August. I had 4 to 5 students who kept me gainfully employed, asI flew all my students at least once a day. Logged about 80 to 95 hrs a month thrilled to be getting a paid doing what I love to do. Oh and my largest paycheck was about 600.00 bucks! BEFORE taxes LOL! So that was expected but oh well it's an eye opener. I was perfectly happy to instruct and build my time until I reached the mins for my regional of choice. October/November rolls around and (due to events at the school that were outa my control) I am only able to fly half the hrs I normally do. This goes on for almost 2 months.

I'm getting frustrated, my students are getting frustrated, and I come to the realization that at this rate (of flying) I can't even do my job as an Instructor because my students are flying so infrequently that every flight becomes a struggle to maintain the skills they were taught the flight before, hence we can't even move foward in the syllabus.

So here I am moving towards the end of November with about 530 TT and 280 multi thinking I'm still 270 hrs away from my goal of 800 hrs. Logging MAYBE 1.5 every other day while spending 14hrs a day camped out at the school hoping for a plane to magically appear. I began to weigh my options.., I could a continue on like this with NO end in sight, OR pack up, move the wife and I to another place where I could continue to CFI, that would cost several thousand in expenses and penalties for breaking our lease,

Or.., pay the money and go to ATP for the RJ course, get what I need to get to the airline that I was working to get to. The way I see it, in either situation, I'm gonna pay.., with the RJ course I pay for the course, get a job, MOVE ONCE., as oppose to move, CFI somemore, then get hired and move again. For me and MY situation, I felt the RJ course was the better of the options that I had.

Ok.., so fast foward to December (last month) I resigned as CFI at the end of Nov. so I could completely focus on the pre course study and academics. There's alot of material and it was time well spent let me tell you. The course itself is only a week long, you start on Sunday and get checked the following Saturday. Ok here's the thing I saw while there., We had 14 guys in our class who paired up (on their own) to form a crew as it were. My sim partner for that week was in a VERY similair situation as you. He had been a CFI until 5 yrs ago he stopped (not sure why but he had not flown in 5 yrs) Apparently he has some airline pilot buddies who talked him into doing the RJ course, I suppose as a quickie refresher and of course the reduced mins although I think he had around 800 TT. (five yrs ago)

Here's the thing, I dedicated weeks of litterally every waking moment of the day to preparing for this course for about 3 and half weeks BEFORE I ever walked in the door, some commit months of preparation. First couple of days I did great, very happy with my performance nailed the flows, profiles, and FMS. My partner didn't fair so well. Had problems with the flows and profiles and I'm telling you, that this course is not designed to be ANY KIND of a pilot skills refresher in any way shape or form.

The sim sesions are 4 hrs a day, each guy flys for 2 hrs and the other sits in the NFP (non flying pilot positon) Every day they introduce new material, either FMS programming, Different approach procedures, and build to Thursday where we are doing V1 cuts, engine failures and Fires. VERY VERY challenging for it being only day 4 in the sim.

We practiced in front of a paper tiger daily, to get our flows and profiles down. Here's what your gonna find.., you can sit in a quiet room all day long and know the flows and profiles down cold, but as soon as you get in the sim, and you have to fly, communicate, interpret and evaluate the information your being given AND remember the procedures, call outs profiles, that is where it will BITE you if your flyings skills aren't where they should be. Because flying isn't second nature so and it wasn't for my partner, I think he had to focus so much effort on just flying the plane and maintain his situational awareness, his performance suffered. (Oh and ALL flying is done in SOLID IMC) I really think that he had the mind set that the RJ course was going to somehow make him current as a pilot after 5 yrs of not flying and that is not what the course is for. The end result is that he did not pass the sim eval.

So if you are really considering this as a way to regain currency I STRONGLY reccommend against it. The course is meant to take current low time pilots and familiarize them with airline procedures in a glass cockpit/FMS environement, thats it. It's and airline training prep school, is what it is. And the other thing is it's not cheap! Everyday I would say to myself, "This is costing me a thousand bucks a day to be here!" Needless to say I've never studied harder! Again, for me and MY situation I felt this was my best option. It wasn't my first choice, I would have rather saved the money and Instructed, it was a wonderful experience.

I will say that if you still decide to do it, it's gonna take a huge commitment. The bottom line challenge with this type of program, is being able to perform (Fly an EFIS and EICAS/FMS equipped turbo jet) AND accomplish all the procedures (from memory) then run the checkilsts at the right time and place. If your not current as a pilot, as my partner was not, your performance will probably suffer. Whew.., didn't realize I was gonna spout forth so much..., stuff. Sorry, thats why I don't often post, I'm not very good at keeping it brief.

Anyway hope this helps, I would say try to get some flying in, study up, get back your IFR currency both flying and knowledge, then this road may be a viable option. Take care and best of luck!

[Bandit_Driver]

The first thing you need to do is get current and really proficient on your instrument skills. I would rent a Frasca or similar sim to really hone your skills. Then start send out resume's. Unfortunately, most regionals are hiring very low time pilots.

Hypoxia, you still need to know it. I have seen its effects in a jet. You would be amazed at how an 8000' cabin effects heavy smokers.

The PFJ schools are a joke and do a great disservice to the industry. First they charge the student for what the airline should be paying for and then only teach the bare minimum to pass the checkride. Then all you are eligible for is very low paying entry level regional. This just encourages the airlines to keep pay low and let the pilot pay for his own training. If pilot actually got experience the traditional way (CFI, night Freight, traffic watch, etc) then the airlines would have to raise pay to attract the qualified pilots. Some 135 freight pilots I know are making 35-50K flying in Lears, Falcons, and Cessna 310's / 402's. I have spoken with fellow Captains about their experiences with these PFJ guys and they all have said the majority are absolutely useless when the crap hits the fan or ATC wants them to do something that isn't standard or has profile and checklist for it. Inexperience has no place in the right seat of airliner.

I personnally recommend that you go out, get current, put resumes out everywhere, and try to land a 135 freight job. You will gain invaluable experience. I should know I flew 135 freight for 2.5 years before going to the airlines. I am glad I did.

Just in case you didn't know some flight schools now are paying CFI's 40-50K a year with benifits. They just can't find CFI's anymore.

Good luck in your decision.

[Airdale]

Todd,

When I was instructing at ATP over a year ago, I had a student come in with the EXACT situation you are in (and 6 months later he landed a 121 job). You are facing a few hurdles.

The first, and probably the biggest, is recency of flight time and experience. You need at least 100hrs in the last 6 months. Secondly, you need to be at the top of your game, not only to get through a 121 interview, but also 121 training. In 121 training, they will NOT reteach basic aviation skills and review all of the FARS. 121 training is meant to take you from being a proficient, knowledgable and up to date pilot and train you for right seat job.

You are not in an impossible situation, but time is of the essence here. Forget RJ courses. They will not help you. What you need is a refresher course designed for someone like you, preferebly in a twin. You need to start with some basic flights covering multi engine aerodynamics, in flight engine failures, Vmc demos etc. Forget single engine stuff. You need multi training and experience.

From there, move on to Instrument refresher stuff. Simple ILS/VOR approaches. Renew your currency and get comfortable again flying in the soup. Move on to single engine approaches and the such. When you feel comfortable, move on to Commerical manuevers in the twin. When you finished this point (and I'll estimate about 40-50hrs), then think about your CFI, but you may not need it at that point.

Call ATP (1-800-255-2877) and ask to speak with Jim. They have done in the past, and I'm sure they would do it again, is create a program specifically tailored to what you need. Expect to spend at least $5k, maybe more depending on your progress and what you need.

When my student came to me with this situation, I did an evaluation of his ability in the Frasca, then spoke with Jim K. and we came up with a Commercial/Instrument refresher course. Covering Regs, Airspace, Weather, Aerodynamics etc.

This is what I believe to be your best option, for two reasons: 1.) Recent Flight Time/Experience. You need it and you need a lot of it. Better it be Multi Engine then Single. 2.) You need to "get back in the game" and an RJ course will not do that for you what so ever. RJ courses are designed for proficient and IFR current Commercial pilots looking for an edge in an interview. Thats it. You need to get proficient and IFR current first.

You can PM anytime and I can call ATP for you and see what we can work out with Jim K. ATP is a great school in the sense that they want to see people succeed. I would be very surprised if they didn't want to work with you on this.

What is your location?

- Dave

[PatrickCPS]

You certainly need time in the books and time in the plane flying, especially getting IFR current as many have said. I'd agree, an RJ course won't help you as you are not at the proficiency level your classmates will be at.

I would find a knowledgeable instructor who will work with you on both a modern sim and flying a twin. Once you are current and proficient again, then re-evaluate your options. CFI-ing may be a good route to take, or you may then consider an RJ course.

Best of luck to you!