PushBack Question

[JEP]

browsing the FAA prelim reports and saw this:

DESCRIPTION
N908XJ, MESABA AIRLINES FLIGHT 3635, A CANADAIR CRJ600 AIRCRAFT, ON PUSHBACK FROM GATE, BACKED INTO A PORTABLE WATER TRUCK, NO INJURIES REPORTED, DAMAGE REPORTED AS SUBSTANTIAL, MINNEAPOLIS, MN

who is responsible for a/c during pushback? Is it correct that once the tug is hooked up, the driver is responsible until un-hooking? Obviously the plane does not have a rear view mirror. Just curious how much, if any, responsibility the flight crew would have in this situation.

[Baronman]

Provided the pilot gave the tug driver the correct instructions, and the pilot released the brakes and set the brakes as he was supposed to, and it was just the tug driver who was careless, I would imagine the pilot bears very little responsibility.

If it's a question of the pilot telling the tug driver to push the wrong way (although the tug driver should still be clearing the aircraft) or the pilot not setting the brakes and the aircraft inadvertently rolling, then he would bear more responsibility.

Well...that's 1 CRJ900 down...only about 100 to go till they're eradicated. :-)

[BigGuyFlying]

Us on the ground. Here at JetBlue we're not allowed to bring the plane in, or push out, without two wing walkers.

[OldTownPilot]

Yep, its the ground crew's responsibility. Once the towbar has been unhooked and crew waved off it then becomes the crew's plane. Ground crews have a way of smashing up airplanes like i've never seen before.

[WalterSobchak]

Not really much you can do after you tell them cleared to push. Doesn't surprise me knowing where they park our 900's.

[wildfreightess]

At least not until they figure a way to install cameras on all sides of the plane. Then there will be yet one more thing that rests on the crews' shoulders.

[Andrew_VT]

Originally Posted by Baronman

Well...that's 1 CRJ900 down...only about 100 to go till they're eradicated. :-)

It's also one reckless tug driver fired....only about a 1000 to go.

When we finally get a rampy to bring us in and we start moving it's like a yellow light and an approaching train all in one. They step on it cause "they can make it!!"

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by wildfreightess

At least not until they figure a way to install cameras on all sides of the plane. Then there will be yet one more thing that rests on the crews' shoulders.

Done. The 777-300 already has camera mounted strategically on the body of the plane!

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

It's also one reckless tug driver fired....only about a 1000 to go.

When we finally get a rampy to bring us in and we start moving it's like a yellow light and an approaching train all in one. They step on it cause "they can make it!!"

Lol, you guys just have so many problems with your 900's this is the second accident.

The first being a ramper running into said 900 before it's first revenue flight!

[Pietrantonio]

I blame the ramp crew for this one. Everywhere I've been, it's been mandatory to have two ramp agents wing walking to prevent instances such as this.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Done. The 777-300 already has camera mounted strategically on the body of the plane!

So does the A340-600. Both are very long aircraft. I believe the B773 is 242ft, while the A346 is 247ft.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Pietrantonio

I blame the ramp crew for this one. Everywhere I've been, it's been mandatory to have two ramp agents wing walking to prevent instances such as this.

The thing is, the crew continued taxiing in without them.

If we don't have marshallers (and this also goes for any US carrier I know of), we sit at the end of the line and wait until they come out.

Perhaps on this SAA flight they were not yet in the area where the wingwalkers were anyway.

More than 50% of the time, the wingwalkers that I see are not actually doing anything to prevent aircraft damage. They're looking towards the jetway or looking at the ground...how hard is it: watch the wing for thirty seconds.

CAL had an instance a month or two ago where a 737 had pushed back a little bit and then stopped there to wait for something. Meanwhile a plane comes in to the gate next to them and that plane's wingwalkers aren't paying a darn bit of attention to the wingtips. Well the crew thought something didn't look right and stopped it short of the parking line despite the marshaller waving them right on in. They got the "atta boy" of the month in the newsletter; the wingtip easily would have hit the 737 that was partly pushed back.

[ozziecat35]

Here at US/HP (HP for me....) we're required to have 2 wingwalkers and all that good stuff. Back in OCT a push tug driver turned a A320 past it's oversteer limits, flight crew wasn't in trouble, but all 3 on the team got suspended.



Question to flight crews? Do you guys have a way to tell the nose gear angle during pushpack (aside from looking out the window) so if you notice something like this happening, you can tell the driver to stop?

[Captain_Bob]

They are typically connected to us via headsets. There's an external Com Panel on the nose... so yes, we can communicate with them. If not... we do have hand signals... but... that only works if they are looking up at us.

When in doubt... just honk the horn. Anyone fly the ATR???

Bob

[ERfly]

Originally Posted by ozziecat35

Here at US/HP (HP for me....) we're required to have 2 wingwalkers and all that good stuff. Back in OCT a push tug driver turned a A320 past it's oversteer limits, flight crew wasn't in trouble, but all 3 on the team got suspended.



Question to flight crews? Do you guys have a way to tell the nose gear angle during pushpack (aside from looking out the window) so if you notice something like this happening, you can tell the driver to stop?

We have no way of knowing the angle of the nose gear at any time. The only indication we have is that the Steering is disengaged. However, all tow bars should have sheer pins, so in theory, if you try to exceed the limits on the nosewheel, it will sheer the pin and break the tow bar before doing damage to the aircraft.

[kellwolf]

Now, keep in mind that this is what I HEARD, so it may or may not be true. Our ops specs say 3 ground personnel (marshaller/pushback and 2 wing walkers) and 2 at an outstation (marshaller/pushback an 1 wing walker). Not sure what Mesaba's requirements are. From what I heard, they only had one wing walker, and they ran around to the other side to help someone get the water cart out of the way. The pushback driver started the push before that person was back in postion to give the all clear.

It's absolutely the fault of the ground crew (and having done a LOT of MSP flying lately, I'm not even surprised).

[BobDDuck]

Once you give the ok to push there isn't much you can do anymore except yell at the tug driver. And half the time the headsets don't work anyways. That or the guy doesn't speak english. We had a sim instructor who was giving guys a hard time on their type ride because he would fail the brakes on the tug and "push" them into the grass. Somebody finally pointed out to him that there really isn't anything they could do about anyways. The LAST thing you want to do is tap the brakes while the plane is rolling backwards.

[joel_MQY]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Now, keep in mind that this is what I HEARD, so it may or may not be true. Our ops specs say 3 ground personnel (marshaller/pushback and 2 wing walkers) and 2 at an outstation (marshaller/pushback an 1 wing walker). Not sure what Mesaba's requirements are. From what I heard, they only had one wing walker, and they ran around to the other side to help someone get the water cart out of the way. The pushback driver started the push before that person was back in postion to give the all clear.

It's absolutely the fault of the ground crew (and having done a LOT of MSP flying lately, I'm not even surprised).

That very well could be true. I have worked for some carriers that only require a pushback and a wing walker. Usually, the wing walker has the CA side, and the pushback keeps an eye on the FO side.

[Bandit_Driver]

The flight crew should be off the hook. When I was at my previous carrier a tug driver tug a Saab through and E gate window in IAD. The was advised since the plane wasn't under its own power they off the hook.

Now if a plane is taxing into a gate and hits something, even with wing walkers, the PIC is may face a vilolation.